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Old 01-21-2016, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
5,281 posts, read 6,594,133 times
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I try to stay out of political discussions for the most part. But ocasionally I find myself getting caught up in some political debates. And my first go to solution is to privatize. This immediately ends the conversation, or I get called all sorts of idiots.

I find it odd that Americas will agree social security is a disaster, the police force is a disaster, all of our social programs are a disaster. Yet when someone talks about the power of the market, people are automatically scared.

So I ask, why is America so afraid to attempt privatization? Why do we keep looking towards government for solutions? And why do we keep trying the same "solutions" over and over again that has netted very few gains or progress?
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:36 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,450 posts, read 60,653,733 times
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Because in almost every instance privatizing governmental functions ends up costing more than doing the work in-house.


From trash collection to building services to military mess halls. This doesn't happen in 100% of the cases but overall, yes.




An example, we privatized trash collection several years ago. Even with competitive bidding the cost is higher, by about 50%, than it would have been if the Town had kept doing it.


Around the same time the decision was made to contract out sewer and water system operations and maintenance. That cost doubled in two years. It is cheaper to have our own trained staff and equipment.


You're in Philadelphia. What has the cost of all the charter schools been (keeping in mind that in PA charter/cyber schools per pupil cost is roughly twice that of public schools without having to provide services to the most difficult students)?
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:41 PM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
21,157 posts, read 19,748,059 times
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2 reasons:

1. The illogical conclusion that since some businesses are poorly run, all will be poorly run.
2. Ignoring the fact that nothing the government runs is well run.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:44 PM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
21,157 posts, read 19,748,059 times
Reputation: 25697
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Because in almost every instance privatizing governmental functions ends up costing more than doing the work in-house.


From trash collection to building services to military mess halls. This doesn't happen in 100% of the cases but overall, yes.




An example, we privatized trash collection several years ago. Even with competitive bidding the cost is higher, by about 50%, than it would have been if the Town had kept doing it.


You're in Philadelphia, what has the cost of all the charter schools there been (in PA charter/cyber schools cost roughly twice per pupil than public schools without having to service the most difficult students)?


Around the same time the decision was made to contract out sewer and water system operations and maintenance. That cost doubled in two years. It is cheaper to have our own trained staff and equipment.

That's not always the case. My city saved a lot by contracting out garbage pick-up and ambulance service. The garbage service was markedly better. I'm not sure about the ambulance service. I do live in a small city, so maybe that is a factor. A large company can contract with several cities.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:47 PM
 
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,301 posts, read 4,412,066 times
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Privatization is of d'debul.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:49 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,450 posts, read 60,653,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
That's not always the case. My city saved a lot by contracting out garbage pick-up and ambulance service. The garbage service was markedly better. I'm not sure about the ambulance service. I do live in a small city, so maybe that is a factor. A large company can contract with several cities.


I think I said it wasn't always the case. And if one company services several jurisdictions you might be able to get a better deal with a combined contract.


Just like when buying vehicles. Get on the federal contract as an authorized purchaser (which every local government in the US can do) and you're getting a Super Crew F250 4x4 for $19500.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:52 PM
 
5,381 posts, read 2,843,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
I try to stay out of political discussions for the most part. But ocasionally I find myself getting caught up in some political debates. And my first go to solution is to privatize. This immediately ends the conversation, or I get called all sorts of idiots.

I find it odd that Americas will agree social security is a disaster, the police force is a disaster, all of our social programs are a disaster. Yet when someone talks about the power of the market, people are automatically scared.

So I ask, why is America so afraid to attempt privatization? Why do we keep looking towards government for solutions? And why do we keep trying the same "solutions" over and over again that has netted very few gains or progress?
Because the education system in this country, over the last 2-3 decades have stopped teaching children how to think, and are teaching children WHAT to think. One of the key pieces of propaganda that has been used to indoctrinate our children is that it is only equality means EQUAL OUTCOME NOT EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

That is why not keeping score at sporting events and giving participation trophies is part of culture now. It is the reason for victim theories like "white privilege" (yet reality is that Asians attain more scholastic and financial success than whites) are used to complain about unequal outcomes.

Privatization leads to winners and losers. Privatization leads to wealth for some and not everyone.

The current generations (X, Y and millennials) view government as a necessary factor in fulfilling their vision of equal outcome. Government can redistribute wealth. Government can subsidize businesses that are not viable on their own merit and regulate competitors out of business. Government can legislate behavior and enforce lower standards for certain victim classes to allow them to an advantage that they would not otherwise get in a competitive private arena.

The historical reality that government's social engineering has been an absolute failure is not a stumbling block, because, as I said, today's generations are not equipped to use logic and reason to see that reliance on government for an equal outcome results in a much worse outcome for everyone instead of outcomes based on merit that benefits all of society.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:59 PM
 
56,988 posts, read 35,233,400 times
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It's not a matter of being scared.

I'm not afraid of a lot of stupid things...I just don't do them because it would be a stupid thing to do.

Privatizing Social Security is a stupid thing to do, and there's no good reason to do it.
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Old 01-21-2016, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,542 posts, read 4,099,232 times
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This is actually a really interesting question, and given that the leading candidates for President from the Republican party is a businessman and not a statesman, very relevant.

I think to begin, we'd have to ask what the difference between government and business is. I'll keep it short. Business is for profit, government is not. The principles of how they work and why they exist are very different with minimal, if any, overlap. I think it's also important to define the role of government. There would be some arguing, so to keep it simple, government has two basic jobs: (1) provide security to it's people and (2) create and uphold laws. This could be summarized as maintaining society (which is distinct from culture).

I think that description of governmetn is fairly unbiased and well reasoned. The most libertarian people would agree that security in the form of military and police is a role of the government, but a guy like Bernie Sanders would probably argue that part of security would include things like universal healthcare. There is plenty of room for debate about the specifics of those things, but the core principles, as far as I can tell, is accurate.

So, why do Americans fear privatization.

Well, it sort of depends. The thing is, the nature of business is to be about generating a profit. Now, it's not unreasonably to assert that the larger a business becomes, the less ethical it is. One of the largest companies in the US, and the world, Wal-Mart, is seen by many to be one of the most, if not the most, unethical company that exists. Their profit generating is about accumulating wealth. Nothing more. Because of this, it's not unreasonable to be skeptical of privatizing things like Social Security, for fear that it's concern will be self interest rather than for it's consumers. Would they have to pay more for less, for example?

And in fairness, business is not always unethical. Generating profit is not bad. The mom and pop shop down the street is also looking to turn a profit, but that's so they can pay the bills. The CEO of Wal-Mart is generating wealth out of his profit, and is unrelated to survival as he is living well outside of the average person's means. Given that people are clearly skeptical of mass accumulation of wealth, which is why Bernie Sanders is resonating with so many people, fear of privatization for this reason is rational.

Let's be realistic here. A locally owned firm for social security is very much likely to truly care for your well being. But it's riskier to put you're money their because many small businesses fail. And while that risk does not exist in a larger company, that company is also not likely to be interested in what's best for you. They will sell you the least for the most.
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Old 01-21-2016, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Alaska
7,516 posts, read 5,760,348 times
Reputation: 4899
Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
I try to stay out of political discussions for the most part. But ocasionally I find myself getting caught up in some political debates. And my first go to solution is to privatize. This immediately ends the conversation, or I get called all sorts of idiots.

I find it odd that Americas will agree social security is a disaster, the police force is a disaster, all of our social programs are a disaster. Yet when someone talks about the power of the market, people are automatically scared.

So I ask, why is America so afraid to attempt privatization? Why do we keep looking towards government for solutions? And why do we keep trying the same "solutions" over and over again that has netted very few gains or progress?
One word: work

We have created a system that rewards laziness. A system where we tell people there are jobs jobs jobs! The economy is great! Yet, the people that should be working these jobs scream foul because they don't pay enough. Because they can make more on entitlements than work because the wages are low. Why are they low? Because this same government allows illegals to pour across the border as cheap labor. We post signs at parks not to feed the animals or they will become dependent on food from humans. How is this different than what we have done with government entitlements.

We have become dependent on handouts and the middle class no longer USA driving force in the GDP.

Give a man a fish he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish he will feed his family for a lifetime.
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