While Obama may not have been sincere, a great many of his voters were (McCain, enemy)

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by pknopp

Invading Libya and Syria was 100% on Obama. Not ending the other wars was 100% on Obama. That Wall Street made out like a bandit with the ACA was as much Obama's fault as anyone else's.

These and other reasons are why Trump won.

True? Partly true? 100%...?

I think not. The POTUS is not king, and much of the more or less military action have roots going back well before Obama, but no need to spin in those circles yet again. None of us is in the situation room and fully briefed as to what the POTUS and Congress is charged to manage on a daily basis.

In any case, I've got what to better do with my time the rest of the day...

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by cb2008

As a woman, my insurance paid for men's prostrate exams. Nobody is exempted

Given so many of the comments posted in this forum, I think we all need to pay for better mental health services at a minimum...

[cb2008]

Originally Posted by pknopp

Address what I said.

I did. Affordability and "not being a reality" is proven wrong by countries that have national health care and have had it for many years. What you are saying amounts to "let's not change anything, hell with the poor let them die, it's too costly, i don't want to pay for it, do nothing." That is not a solution. It is denial.

[pknopp]

Originally Posted by cb2008

I did. Affordability and "not being a reality" is proven wrong by countries that have national health care and have had it for many years. What you are saying amounts to "let's not change anything, hell with the poor let them die, it's too costly, i don't want to pay for it, do nothing." That is not a solution. It is denial.

Their health care programs are NOT Wall Street based. They are NOT things companies can pull coverage because profits are not high enough.

It will never be affordable until we change this and fund it like these other countries.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by LearnMe

Comments from conservatives and liberals alike in these threads seem more about lodging put-downs and insults over anything much more intelligent than that, but if you would like to consider a bit more about liberal thinking and/or sentiment, you might find this interesting.

Obama was a disappointment. Hillary as well. Disappointment that helped bring about POTUS Trump, an abomination...

"The Obama of 2008 was to be this century’s FDR, signifying a moment of lasting realignment and transcendent progress — rather than one of growing alienation and despair culminating in the election of Donald Trump. But the liberalism of 21st century America, it turns out, is ill-equipped to achieve the transformative change it once so loftily promised: not because it made a noble attempt and failed but because it never really sought this change to begin with.

While Obama may not have been sincere, a great many of his voters were, and the millions who embraced his message revealed a genuine hunger for transformative change.

Now all we need is a political movement that actually seeks it out.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/05/the-real-obama

I believe many Trump supporters are sincere. Many voted who had never voted before or hadn't in years. Is he doing a good job? That is a question that has no answer at this stage, it is too soon to judge, but his voters, many of them, voted for change and they are getting it.

[cb2008]

Originally Posted by pknopp

Their health care programs are NOT Wall Street based. They are NOT things companies can pull coverage because profits are not high enough.

It will never be affordable until we change this and fund it like these other countries.

It should have been single payer from the start. That was the compromise Obama made which was a big mistake. He campaigned on single payer but gave in to pressure. Had the Republicans participated honestly instead of trying hard to never let him succeed, maybe he could have pushed harder and won.

[pknopp]

Originally Posted by cb2008

It should have been single payer from the start. That was the compromise Obama made which was a big mistake.

Obama said from the beginning he was NOT going to do single payer. It's too bad that this was just about the only thing he didn't go back on.

He campaigned on single payer but gave in to pressure. Had the Republicans participated honestly instead of trying hard to never let him succeed, maybe he could have pushed harder and won.

I've covered this many times. One speech from many years ago was uncovered where he mentioned single pay. When he ran he NEVER ran on it. Ever.

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by cb2008

It should have been single payer from the start. That was the compromise Obama made which was a big mistake. He campaigned on single payer but gave in to pressure. Had the Republicans participated honestly instead of trying hard to never let him succeed, maybe he could have pushed harder and won.

singlepayer is a non-starter, until its proponents answer the questions that most are asking about it

even most republicans would be for a singlepayer

if the liberals would only answer two questions

we want real care....quality care...not care like the Dept of health horror clinics..so will you guarantee the quality of care

and

HOW are you going to pay for it

two questions the liberals avoid like the plague

costs of singlepayer or semi-singlepayer:

to cover 320 million people with true singplepayer (kinda like Medicaid) (no deductables, no co-pay, etc 100% coverage minus what the government deams denial of coverage and cosmetics................................... a little over 6 trillion a year, and always increasing due to inflation



to cover 320 million people with a 75/25 government insurance (kinda like medicare) deductibles, copays, denial of service, etc............................................... ........................ about 3.5 trillion a year and always increasing due to inflation



how many taxpayers are there???
according to the IRS there are about 145 million FILERS, of those 145 million filers about 45% have a zero or negative tax liability ...so in reality there are only about 70-75 million tax payers


what does 6 trillion go into 75 million taxpayers........about 80k
what does 3.5 trillion go into 75 million taxpayers........about 46k


can you as a taxpayer... afford a NEW 46k to 80k tax bill, on top of the taxes you are already paying?????


bet the answer is no

singlepayer is NOT sustainable at any level when you are talking about 320 million patients, and less than 100 million taxpayers


they (the government) cant lower much..the best the government could do is lower some prescription medicines




how are you going to control the cost of medical equipment(mri or x-ray machines, etc)??????most xray machine are made in Denmark



how are you going to control the cost of the rising electric bills the doctors/hospitals are facing????



how are you going to control the rising property tax/rent/mortgage that doctors face?????



how are you going to control the cost of supplies(gauze, plaster, silk, rubber, polystyrene( a oil product)?????especially some supplies that aren't even American



how are you going to control the cost of people salaries???? a maximum wage???



how they are going to control the employment costs for Doctors, nurses, technicians, hospital food operators, hospital linen cleaning service, custodial services, medical transcribers........are you going to 'nationalize' every profession that is even remotely connected to medicine????



how are they going to control malpractice INSURANCE COSTS?????



things are expensive

for example the average hospital uses a lot of electricity...about 500,000 a month...that's over 6 million dollars in electric costs yearly.....you are not going to cut that piece of overhead

when you go to the local doctor and pay him/her 100..its not 100 dollars going into his pocket...there are lots of other COSTS


they have lots of overhead costs:
rent/lease/mortgage
property taxes
electric costs
equipment costs(and many pieces of equipment are not even made here)
cleaning costs
supply costs
personnel costs
etc


singlepayer will not control these costs




medicine (like anyother SERVICE) costs money,,(,money that our government doesn't have)




want to know A BIG REASON why its lower in those other countries.??? salaries.....a nurse in France(actually most of europe) makes about 1500-1800 a month(in us dollars)..that's 18-20000 a year.....meanwhile according to payscale.com the average Rn makes 40-78,000 in the usa


so what is it that singlepayer supporters 'think' or 'believe' we will be able to negotiate ??? medicines maybe....salaries not likely...other supply costs not likely.....property taxes and overhead...not a chance


singlepayer would cost between 3.5 TRILLION and 6 trillion ANNUALLY.....and will INCREASE everyyear...the taxpayers cant afford that

so I will ask YOU the two questions :

1. can you confirm singlepayer (government controlled) would be QUALITY CARE...or would it be crap care like at the department of health (government) clinics


2. how are you going to pay for it.........bet most wont even consider answering this question (since singlepayer would cost 3-6 trillion per year to cover 320 million people)..... I give you a hint...one way is to get rid of income tax, and to tax spending



if you don't have the answers...then I would bet you are asking them too

[pknopp]

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

singlepayer is a non-starter, until its proponents answer the questions that most are asking about it

even most republicans would be for a singlepayer

if the liberals would only answer two questions

we want real care....quality care...not care like the Dept of health horror clinics..so will you guarantee the quality of care

I'm not sure what you are looking for BUT I've often argued that those who want single payer are their own worse enemy. They refuse to condemn those who oversee poor decisions. It was a huge mistake for Obama to not fire a large number of people running the V.A. and make sure it was run correctly.

Now the opponents still have the VA to point to as to why they do not want single payer.

and

HOW are you going to pay for it

two questions the liberals avoid like the plague

It's a complicated issue. If it was me, I would bring every single soldier home and cut off all foreign aid and start there. From there we would have to see what we are left with.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by LearnMe

. For Trump supporters, Obama was an abomination in all too many respects. Tell me I'm wrong...

on this point we agree. I have no expectation that we recover from this for quite some time and only after things get vastly worse.