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This is not an issue about liberal arts majors v. STEM majors. The low-income population that suffers from limited cognitive ability can barely read. The question is not whether or not they can get a college degree. It is whether or not they can get a high school diploma. Many cannot, because their limited intellectual capacity, for whatever reason, keeps them from being able to acquire the skills and information necessary for that most basic of academic credentials.
In addition to not being able to read or do basic math, cognitively-impaired people often do not reason well and have poor executive functions dealing with planning and impulse control. Thus the focus is always living in a very brief present, with little or no planning for the future. Anyone who can get into a four-year college has skills far beyond those who literally cannot read.
I agree that the bold are primarily factors in both academic and career pursuits.
But will note that most low-income people can read, especially so in this country.
Executive functioning, the ability to plan/execute goals/deliverables, impulse control, and an individual's drive/determination for planning/executing goals/deliverables are more important in someone's life versus their IQ or the college major.
Will also note that IQ test are rarely even given today on a wide scale. I was only tested because my pediatrician though I was "retarded" and sent me to be tested for retardation when I was a toddler. Ironically, something similar happened with my nephew, he was being evaluated for behavior and personality disorders as a preschooler and it showed he was "genius." Both of us would have been considered "weird" children lol. And both of us grew up in poverty and learned how to read and even do calculus lol.
I'll note that if our IQ was genetic, I'd think our entire family would be super smart. But unfortunately, they are not. Neither of my parents finished high school, even though they could read. Ironically, neither of them were raised in poverty either and they were from working-middle class families.
Scientists have discovered over 50 new genes relating to intelligence—a finding that gives us a far better insight into the “genetic architecture of intelligence” and how this relates to IQ.
While the exact percentage is widely debated, scientists generally agree that a large proportion of intelligence is inherited—and therefore based on genetic factors.
While the exact percentage is widely debated, scientists generally agree that a large proportion of intelligence is inherited—and therefore based on genetic factors.
Scientists identify 'intelligence' genes and how to control them
Scientists identified clusters of genes directly linked to human intelligence
Called M1 and M3, these so-called 'gene networks' appear to determine how smart a person is by controlling their processing speed and reasoning
These networks are*likely to be under the control of 'master switches'
Researchers are now keen to identify these switches and manipulate them
Evidence for a genetic influence on a brain structure critical to intelligence was reported Monday in a study by Norwegian and UC San Diego researchers.
Researchers found that changes in the thickness of the brain’s cortex, the seat of cognition, are linked to its genetically determined organization.
Genes housed on the X chromosome shed new light on the human mind, including why identical female twins differ more than male twins, why there are more male geniuses and male autists, and why you may have mom to thank for your brains.
I reviewed the study from King's College London that was cited in your link.
From that piece the following was determined:
This was sentence #1 of paragraph #7 from the actual college that conducted the study.
Please note that as a liberal arts major, I was taught to research and to always review the sources of material that is posted, especially media sources as they always take a particular point of view for their particular audience. When you review the source, you get a better idea of what the article really was about.
As I stated earlier, there is no gene for intelligence that has been discovered.
There are genes for diseases (like sickle cell) and physical traits that have been identified. I also never said that there will never be a gene identified for intelligence, I'm actually sure that there will be at some point.
You should take your own words in regards to "science" and also learn, like a liberal arts major, to verify your sources and your articles. FWIW scientists do the same thing in regards to their experiments and results of said experiments/research.
ResidentScienceDenier2007,
You are either a liar or you didn't read that link. Couple this with your denial of science and you should be ashamed of yourself.
You deliberately chose to cut off the following: "‘Our research shows that there are not genes for genius. However, to have super-high intelligence you need to have many of the positive alleles and importantly few of the negative rare effects, such as the rare functional alleles identified in our study.’"
If you were honest, and apparently you are now using lies to push your anti-science positons -- this study and the researchers are clearly arguing that genetics does play into IQ.
If you honestly read this link as you claimed - then you are functionally illiterate.
Quote:
"Genetic research on intelligence consistently indicates that around half of the differences between people can be explained by genetic factors......
Professor Plomin added: ‘Previous research suggests that common SNPs in total account for around 25 per cent of the variance in intelligence. The question we asked, for the first time, was - how much will these functional variants account for? We found that the functional SNPs in our study explain around 17 per cent of the differences between people in intelligence.’
The authors acknowledge that environmental influences also have an impact, often interacting with genetic factors. Professor Plomin said: ‘Clearly super-bright people such as those in our study are more likely to select environments conducive to their genetic propensity, so they might have grown up reading books that present intellectual problems or be more likely to attend a university.’"
This same professor that you chose to cite with your "research" through a study said this:
Quote:
"Does any serious scientist any longer doubt that heredity contributes importantly to individual differences in intelligence?" This was the question put by Professor Robert Plomin of the Institute of Psychiatry in London in a recent issue of the scientific journal Behavioural Genetics.
The professor of the study that you supposedly read a summary point blank agrees with me and not only that asks if a serious scientist even doubts my position...you are advocating a flat earth position.
Here is the same Professor Plomin - of the study you chose to make your hill to die on, complaining to the BBC that too many ignore the fact that genetics plays into IQ...or he should rephrase it to deny the science...lol
Here is his official page - hey you can download the same report you misread (lied about?) and others where he shows a genetic difference in academic performance of students in the UK.
Michiganmoon - sigh, none of them said that there is a specific gene linked to heritability of intelligence. They didn't say that because no specific gene has been linked to intelligence.
Some of your links say 40 genes are "linked to intelligence." Another said 50 genes were "linked to intelligence" and then the one that I reviewed from London (which most of the news reports mentioned and/or were based upon) was about gray matter in the brain and equivocally stated, which I quoted that there was no gene associated with "genius."
You can ignore your own information as much as you like.
Also, again, you have not shared your career background. I've shared mine and I have no hesitation in admitting I am not a scientist. However, I do know how to read and comprehend what I'm reading - I was taught to do so by my liberal arts education (and FWIW, I do have a master's degree that is not a part of the liberal arts, like most liberal arts undergrad go on to obtain).
I'm not denying anything. You are not comprehending what you are reading. If there is a specific gene tied to intelligence, what gene is it? None of your articles state which gene is the "intelligence gene." There are specific genes and/or specific mutations of specific genes that cause diseases and/or physical traits that have been identified. There is not specific gene for intelligence.
FYI - "correlations" and "links" are not definitive.
On the bold below that you typed:
Quote:
However, to have super-high intelligence you need to have many of the positive alleles and importantly few of the negative rare effects, such as the rare functional alleles identified in our study.’"
How many of these positive alleles do you need to have and which ones....?
That is my point. They do not know they are only making a theory. Intelligence and genetics is a new field of study from a biological, scientific perspective and especially so since the human genome has been mapped. There is no specific gene that shows heritable intelligence.
You can keep denying this and keep bringing up your links all you want.
ResidentScienceDenier2007,
You are either lying or you are functionally illiterate.
#1 The study you critiqued clearly agreed with me. You are either lying or lack basic reading comprehension. Professor Plomin is outspoken that genetics play a role in IQ and claims to have found specific genes.
#2 Your anti-science claim that they haven't found specific genes linked to IQ is pure BS and several of my links have shown this.
Quote:
Brain size and smarts are, to some extent, genetic — and now, a team of more than 200 researchers has uncovered specific genes that are linked to both brain volume and IQ....."We found fairly unequivocal proof supporting a genetic link to brain function and intelligence. For the first time, we have watertight evidence of how these genes affect the brain," said lead researcher Paul Thompson, a neurologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, School of Medicine......"Our individual centers couldn't review enough brain scans to obtain definitive results," Thompson said in a statement. "By sharing our data with Project ENIGMA, we created a sample large enough to reveal clear patterns in genetic variation and show how these changes physically alter the brain."
........A gene sequence called rs7294919 on chromosome 12 is linked to variations in hippocampus volume: Every instance of a genetic variant called a T-allele in this region was linked to lower hippocampus volume equivalent to 3.9 years of aging. (DNA is made up of four bases — A, C, T and G.)
This location on the chromosome (a threadlike structure that holds a DNA molecule) occurred between genes associated with the regulation of cell death and with cellular brain development and the cleaning up of proteins, including tau, which becomes defective in Alzheimer's disease.
Another notable genetic sequence, located within the HMGA2 gene on chromosome 12, was linked with intracranial volume — in other words, the space inside your skull that marks the outer limit as to how big your brain can get. At this spot, every C-allele variant was linked to not only lower intracranial volume, but also to lower IQ scores on the Multidimensional Aptitude Battery, a measure of intelligence.
"This is a really exciting discovery: that a single letter change leads to a bigger brain," said Thompson.
Going forward, Thompson said, researchers could start to figure out how to mediate these genes' influences on the brain. The genes influence brains across a wide subset of people (mostly of European descent) from North America, Europe and Australia. That means that drug therapies targeting these genes could have broad applications.
The researchers now plan to tackle the genes that influence the brain's wiring, hoping to unravel the secrets of connectivity-related disorders such as autism.
Just curious what your "flat earth theory" is for why males have greater IQ variability. Science says it is because known specific genes corresponding to IQ are on the X chromosome. What does an anti-science person such as yourself say? Or do you deny the global statistics on IQ and gender?
P.S. If you are being serious and actually reading and thinking based on how your college taught you to think and read, then you should sue your college for fraud.
The USA has poured many billions into fighting poverty and yet statistically things are no bad, whether it's the inner city or Appalachia. Much of the debt bankrupting our nation is related to anti poverty or safety net programs. I believe both people on the right and left have a problem: they can't acknowledge the overwhelming evidence in study after study that most poor people also have low IQs and the few success stories you hear about of people rising from poverty are those who were born poor but have high IQs. (examples include Neil Degrass Tyson, Sonya Sotomayor, etc)
People on the right believe poor people are smart enough to overcome their situation but are lazy. People on the left believe we need more programs to give people a leg up and that any inequality of any kind is the result of deliberate discrimination. The reality is people with low IQs are simply not capable of rising out of poverty in our complex society filled with fine print and lots of opportunities to derail your self through loan / credit debt, high insurance rates, etc. If you gave all poor American households $20k tomorrow but don't change anything else within a couple years there would be no improvement because the money would mostly be wasted on things like gambling, customizing low value automobiles, etc.
I believe the best approach is to decrease complexity by clamping down on industries that prey on low IQ people, like pay day loans, easy credit / loans, and unreasonable fine print. Heck, my IQ is 111 and I struggled to understand a FAFSA form! I've also gotten hosed by fine print in apartment leases. Such things are money transfers from the poor to the rich. For people who struggle to maintain the most basic employment we need govt jobs doing things like planting trees in parks, cleaning sidewalks, and the like. I think Universal Basic Income would prevent many people from engaging in illegal activities.
ResidentScienceDenier2007,
You are either lying or you are functionally illiterate.
#1 The study you critiqued clearly agreed with me. You are either lying or lack basic reading comprehension. Professor Plomin is outspoken that genetics play a role in IQ and claims to have found specific genes.
#2 Your anti-science claim that they haven't found specific genes linked to IQ is pure BS and several of my links have shown this.
Just curious what your "flat earth theory" is for why males have greater IQ variability. Science says it is because known specific genes corresponding to IQ are on the X chromosome. What does an anti-science person such as yourself say? Or do you deny the global statistics on IQ and gender?
P.S. If you are being serious and actually reading and thinking based on how your college taught you to think and read, then you should sue your college for fraud.
I have no dog in this particular fight, but I believe many people are simply uncomfortable with the idea that IQ is tied to genetics.
I think it's rather obvious myself. Some people simply don't have the innate aptitude to process information as well as others.
A friend of mine from a poor family (homeless for a short period) who dropped out of highschool as a sophomore (very rarely studied or completed homework), scored very high on his GED exam and has recently been offered a job by a large tech company in California, who offered to cover his living expenses. I've always known he was a smart guy (although I would deny it because he was arrogant about it) and he began life in pretty dire circumstances.
I noticed similar cognitive abilities in other family members of his. He has an older brother who actually competed in various science contests in his youth but unfortunately developed schizophrenia in his early teens.
The USA has poured many billions into fighting poverty and yet statistically things are no bad, whether it's the inner city or Appalachia. Much of the debt bankrupting our nation is related to anti poverty or safety net programs. I believe both people on the right and left have a problem: they can't acknowledge the overwhelming evidence in study after study that most poor people also have low IQs and the few success stories you hear about of people rising from poverty are those who were born poor but have high IQs. (examples include Neil Degrass Tyson, Sonya Sotomayor, etc)
People on the right believe poor people are smart enough to overcome their situation but are lazy. People on the left believe we need more programs to give people a leg up and that any inequality of any kind is the result of deliberate discrimination. The reality is people with low IQs are simply not capable of rising out of poverty in our complex society filled with fine print and lots of opportunities to derail your self through loan / credit debt, high insurance rates, etc. If you gave all poor American households $20k tomorrow but don't change anything else within a couple years there would be no improvement because the money would mostly be wasted on things like gambling, customizing low value automobiles, etc.
I believe the best approach is to decrease complexity by clamping down on industries that prey on low IQ people, like pay day loans, easy credit / loans, and unreasonable fine print. Heck, my IQ is 111 and I struggled to understand a FAFSA form! I've also gotten hosed by fine print in apartment leases. Such things are money transfers from the poor to the rich. For people who struggle to maintain the most basic employment we need govt jobs doing things like planting trees in parks, cleaning sidewalks, and the like. I think Universal Basic Income would prevent many people from engaging in illegal activities.
lol Speaking of low IQ how hard is it to understand the road to success?
Finish High school.
Work a fulltime job.
Don't have kids until you're at least 21 and are married.
"American adults who followed these three simple rules, only about 2 percent are in poverty and nearly 75 percent have joined the middle class (defined as earning around $55,000 or more per year)."
The USA has poured many billions into fighting poverty and yet statistically things are no bad, whether it's the inner city or Appalachia. Much of the debt bankrupting our nation is related to anti poverty or safety net programs. I believe both people on the right and left have a problem: they can't acknowledge the overwhelming evidence in study after study that most poor people also have low IQs and the few success stories you hear about of people rising from poverty are those who were born poor but have high IQs. (examples include Neil Degrass Tyson, Sonya Sotomayor, etc)
People on the right believe poor people are smart enough to overcome their situation but are lazy. People on the left believe we need more programs to give people a leg up and that any inequality of any kind is the result of deliberate discrimination. The reality is people with low IQs are simply not capable of rising out of poverty in our complex society filled with fine print and lots of opportunities to derail your self through loan / credit debt, high insurance rates, etc. If you gave all poor American households $20k tomorrow but don't change anything else within a couple years there would be no improvement because the money would mostly be wasted on things like gambling, customizing low value automobiles, etc.
I believe the best approach is to decrease complexity by clamping down on industries that prey on low IQ people, like pay day loans, easy credit / loans, and unreasonable fine print. Heck, my IQ is 111 and I struggled to understand a FAFSA form! I've also gotten hosed by fine print in apartment leases. Such things are money transfers from the poor to the rich. For people who struggle to maintain the most basic employment we need govt jobs doing things like planting trees in parks, cleaning sidewalks, and the like. I think Universal Basic Income would prevent many people from engaging in illegal activities.
With the bold, be specific. What debt are you talking about? I can vaguely remember Obama giving an enormous stimulus packages to big bankers and car industries. Did these bankers have high IQs? It was their choices that put them in the mess they were in, yet surely they have high IQs because they are not poor. Again, what debt are you talking about? I seriously doubt we spend trillions of dollars a year fighting poverty.
All that said, there was a poverty that was created within this country due to policies and rule of law by our government. I'm talking about slavery, Jim Crow, and the general mistreatment of black Americans. Just about our whole class was kept down from being able to build wealth in this country. In fact it was this created poverty that built the initial wealth in this country, and in many ways it is continuing to build wealth because black people are still mostly a class of labor. If anyone is deserving of a stimulus package, it is Black America. IQ is not the blame for that.
In any case, what is IQ? It certainly isn't head knowledge. IQ simply tries to test for the ability of someone to solve a problem they never seen before. If you can solve problems like that, then you have a high IQ. It doesn't test your ability to make fiscal choices. It doesn't test you ability to be a functional person in a quote unquote modern society. It doesn't test head knowledge. It only tests for problem solving ability. Low IQ doesn't create poverty, but a certain poverty was created in this country for the gain of the wealthy. Again I'm talking slavery and the years of terrorism afterward. Do you want to address that?
Poverty costs our government billions of dollars, but supply side tax cuts cost our government trillions of dollars.
Quote:
I believe both people on the right and left have a problem: they can't acknowledge the overwhelming evidence in study after study that most poor people also have low IQs
The reality is people with low IQs are simply not capable of rising out of poverty in our complex society.
What percentage of people in a low income ghetto go to college?
What percentage of people in a upper middle class neighborhood go to college?
A persons economic environment has more effect on getting a good job than low IQ.
Quote:
I believe the best approach is to decrease complexity by clamping down on industries that prey on low IQ people, like pay day loans, easy credit / loans, and unreasonable fine print.
Excellent idea.
Quote:
For people who struggle to maintain the most basic employment we need govt jobs doing things like planting trees in parks, cleaning sidewalks, and the like. I think Universal Basic Income would prevent many people from engaging in illegal activities.
Its refreshing to hear actual talk of ways to reduce poverty like the above. But unfortunately today's political conversations rarely include such real ideas, rather its usually attacks on those who receive government aid.
Social welfare is much more related to poverty in America than IQ is. There are lots of people who are not very intelligent that are not poor and many who could be considered 'rich'.
Many women get rich on their looks alone and are not intelligent.
Welfare takes the incentive for many to become intelligent. Intelligence can be very dynamic.
Welfare is the problem in America that keeps people poor and ignorant, not inherent intelligence level. Intelligence does help however but is not a key factor in not being 'poor' which is subjective anyway.
Work ethic, cronyism and looks are much more important in the U.S. than intelligence. This is obvious to someone who is actually intelligent.
Last edited by Objective Detective; 06-30-2017 at 06:49 PM..
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