Happy birthday Karl Marx, You are the Greatest Human being to ever live (salaries, New York)

[illtaketwoplease]

Human nature by it's very definition is an independent variable.

All your logic and reasoning has been put to practice and ultimately failed. The problem is that what is supposed to work on paper doesn't always in real life. Why? Human nature.

[rupp-certified]

Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease

Human nature by it's very definition is an independent variable.

All your logic and reasoning has been put to practice and ultimately failed. The problem is that what is supposed to work on paper doesn't always in real life. Why? Human nature.

Frankly Marxism is stupid on paper and works as poorly as I'd expect in real life, after dozens of experiments across vastly different cultures. But some libs may as well believe Karl Marx inspired Jesus to feed the five thousand!

[Winterfall8324]

Originally Posted by rupp-certified

Frankly Marxism is stupid on paper and works as poorly as I'd expect in real life, after dozens of experiments across vastly different cultures. But some libs may as well believe Karl Marx inspired Jesus to feed the five thousand!

It has succeeded in more ways than one.

The Hispanics have been the most successful but even on smaller scales Marxism has brought huge innovations to capitalist economies everywhere.

Mao, Lenin, are only the tip of the iceberg. None authoritarian Marxist groups have and do exist.

[illtaketwoplease]

Originally Posted by Winterfall8324

It has succeeded in more ways than one.

The Hispanics have been the most successful but even on smaller scales Marxism has brought huge innovations to capitalist economies everywhere.

Mao, Lenin, are only the tip of the iceberg. None authoritarian Marxist groups have and do exist.

Examples?

[BornintheSprings]

Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease

Examples?

He has been giving examples this whole thread go back and reread it.

[illtaketwoplease]

Originally Posted by BornintheSprings

He has been giving examples this whole thread go back and reread it.

I'm not going back through 702 posts. And from what I have read they have all been references to situations that have failed for one reason or another. I am a big fan of cooperatives, but those have been around since before Christ was born - so wondering what these great innovations are and where Marxism is working.

[Winterfall8324]

Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease

I'm not going back through 702 posts. And from what I have read they have all been references to situations that have failed for one reason or another. I am a big fan of cooperatives, but those have been around since before Christ was born - so wondering what these great innovations are and where Marxism is working.

Universal medical care, social security, etc. were all socialist ideas.

Worker cooperatives rose during the Marxian era of the 1800s to combat capitalism: In Cleveland and the rust belt today worker unions are building a united front on production capacities to fit the needs of the region rather than global markets- In Cleveland, Worker Co-Ops Look to a Spanish Model - TIME


In south Mexico (Chiapas) farming production is done by the workers and an anarchist societal system has been put into place by the Zapatistas to this day. Even now they are gaining international support.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTzC_QqSqwc&t=639s


Socialism was responsible for the early development of the middle east under Reza Shah, Ataturk, King Faisal, etc.

And of course there was the achievements in Catalonia who only fell due to military conquest by both the republicans and the fascists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

Of course Spain to this day offers leftist economic models as in Mondragon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation


And while I didn't support his authoritarian model Sankara's agriculture reforms not only brought economic freedom to his citizens they also helped promote environmentalism, something that is important to this day:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara

[Winterfall8324]

One last thing about Sankara since he is such an icon:

“Our country produces enough to feed us all. Alas, for lack of organization, we are forced to beg for food aid. It’s this aid that instills in our spirits the attitude of beggars”

If allowed, people can produce for themselves without the need for begging or imperialistic control. Give the resources in the hands of the worker and leave the market out of the process, and people will have what they need.

[ChiGeekGuest]

Originally Posted by No_Recess

It's semantics Chi.

Apparently in AnCapistan, that's all there is. Simply semantics & sophistry eh Horatio?

Originally Posted by No_Recess

I don't have a better word for self-determination than self-ownership. Neither did Rothbard

Frankly, I'm not surprised.

Folks who cannot fathom how to 'semantically' deal with the fact that people are not property cannot realistically be expected to come up with another word for 'self-dermination'.

How about self-determination? Why is it somehow necessary for all people to become property in order to be free or autonomous? Freedom for automatons?

You repeatedly ignore the common sense counter that it's entirely possible ( if not desirable ) to critically & cratively imagine a belief system that begins with ... get this ... anti-climactic drum roll the concept that no one owns anybody, either himself or anyone else, nor any share of anybody.

& are seemingly stuck on syllogistic semantics:

• All men are property
• Automaton is a man
• Automaton is property

How does this differ from the Antebellum ideology? It's nonsensical.

• All people are property
• Some people are dark-skinned property
• Some people are light-skinned property

Originally Posted by No_Recess

If you notice he used the terminology of "within the framework" when describing the reality of children being cared for by adults.

I did notice. After all, it's only semantics, why would ideologically-defined words matter? When words mean whatever the ideology dictates, they become meaningless.

In any case, the word 'framework' likely contains the most meaning here. For any ideology, religion, or philosophy. Like a literal framework for a piece of Art. Everything within the frame is controlled by the Artist. The person viewing sees the Artwork & can relate to the piece, love or dislike, 'get it' or not, & so on.

In any case, there's a whole world outside the framework.

There is literally the entire world existing outside the framework. It & I do not need your permission.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

~ Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio

Please also see Plato's allegory of the cave, mistaking shadows for reality, & afraid to leave the cave.

Self-imprisoned.

Originally Posted by No_Recess

Of course being human has value in itself. What better way to respect that value by saying all humans should be free to do what they want as long as they don't commit violence against others?

My desire is for all individuals to have self-determination. That's why the NAP is directly tied to it. If you hit me in the head with a baseball bat and steal the bread from my hand you've surely altered my ability to self-determine my life.

If it's all semantics, what does any of it really mean? The NAP, the social or anti-social contract or lack of consent to either, & what about the children? Get real. What child consents to being born into this world? If it's all semantics, it's whatever you choose to define each & every term. It's worse than a house of cards. & there's no joy to any of what you propose. It's a prison where you get to choose the 'bars' & lucky you.

Me? I left the cave.

[ChiGeekGuest]

“listen: there’s a hell
of a good universe next door; let’s go”


― E.E. Cummings