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So you’re admitting that Israel wants to wipe others off the map if given half a chance?
So then Iran is justified in seeking nukes then, right?
Every nation is justified in seeking self-defense? Do you believe a citizen of the USA should be able to buy multiple guns and thousands of rounds of ammo? If so, you must believe that citizens of a valid government and nation have the right to protect themselves from aggression.
Former POTUSes in the USA, even Reagan, sought nuke reduction treaties and de-nuclearisation of the world in general. At that point other countries could look and think "OK, they are cutting back and said they would never first strike, etc.)...and rest easier.
Now that we have reversed all of that, we have entered a new arms race. Hey, look at NK - Trump is bowing to a Great Dictator Murderer because he has some barely functioning nukes. Such a deal. Put all your citizens in work camps, starve and work them to death while you fatten yourselves and the 1%....then make a funky nuke and a couple rockets and the POTUS is on a level playing field with you....
What country wouldn't want to have nukes after seeing that?
The world is full of rational actors...although we are currently not one. Pakistan has plenty of nukes and we gave them billions in weapons - some which could be used to deliver their stuff. What is the big diff with them and Iran? I will answer that for you - Iran is much more rational and much more likely to become a reasonable player if we played nice.
The Germans exterminated any and all of Jewish SECULAR communities, as well as religious. Many of the Russian Jews were relatively secular (of course, since Russia was not a religious place!). I think the Germans killed 2+ there, mostly with a single bullet to the back of the head.
So, in that sense, it IS a race as these people who identified with Jews, were related to Jews or lived in a Jewish community were ALL targeted....and therefore needed a place to "be" without the Christians of Europe exterminating them for their money.
However you twist it doesn't change the fact. It is a religion, not a race. If they needed a place of their own they should have worked that out in europe or the u.s. where nobody was going to wage war against them, or even better just give up the idea of having their own country.
All those europeans (who have seized to be jews long ago) have as much right to found a country in israel, as americans have a right to found a country in germany whatever the circumstances.
Since the beginning of the second wave of mass immigration in 1990, when large numbers of Jews from Warsaw Pact countries made Aliyah, some 1.35 million immigrants have come to Israel, or about 42% of all Aliyah since 1948.
Using 1990 as your basis using your fuzzy math, 864,000 Jews died during the same time period. That equates to a 436,000. We have a gain. It still means nothing as the amount of Jews that exist on the entire planet is still less than then number that existed previous to WW2.
Since we are talking about hypothetical ideas, i have another one.
Imagine blacks are tired of being at the lowest social class. So all the rich blacks get together and go to the government and say. We want a state in africa. We just need your help to get started and a lot of weapons. You get rid of all this people on welfare and all the prisoners, etc. and we get a country for ourselves. And the government surprisingly say ok, we'll set it up for you, then you move out. The arm industry, give it the ok, and people start to get excited to go back to their motherland.
What a terrible idea. Somehow european 'jews' in the middle east is a great idea.
Using 1990 as your basis using your fuzzy math, 864,000 Jews died during the same time period. That equates to a 436,000. We have a gain. It still means nothing as the amount of Jews that exist on the entire planet is still less than then number that existed previous to WW2.
Do the math again, 864,000 out of the total israeli population, not out of 1.3 millions. I'm sure most of the immigrants who arrived after 1990 are still alive.
However, I think that your logic harbors within it valid logical converse example in WWII Germany wherein Jews were marked and seen as outsiders the way that Gazan's are. Jews were sent to a detention area, as have been the Palestinians.
Thus this isn't a borders issue. Its an immigration and integration issue.
Unless you want to argue that Germany was only protecting its "borders", then you are going to have hard time making this argument for Israel today.
Remember, Palestinians don't have a nation. They are being kept in detention. Thus, this is not a border issue.
This is an issue of immigration and exclusion, perhaps to everyone except those who would simply deny the very obvious historical parallel out of political self-interest.
Nazis sent Jews to concentration camps and these Jews didn't have a choice. Palestinian Arabs left their homes in 1948 mainly at the urging of the neighboring Arab nations and it was their choice. Those that didn't leave have Israeli citizenship with the rights associated with that. The Gazan Palestinian Arabs could have been assimilated into Egyptian society when Egypt controled Gaza between 1948-1956 & 1957-1967 and even now Egypt has a land border crossing with Gaza and could do more to allow free movement & help for these fellow Arab Muslims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mash123
US giving Israel about 1.5% of its' budget and almost all of it must be spent in USA. It's not something significant. Yes, force is keeping their life there possible.
The USA gives the same amount of money to Egypt as the USA made a financial commitment to both Egypt and Israel as part of the 1979 Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty. Why doesn't anybody question the American money going to Egypt which doesn't really do much for the USA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelogo
However you twist it doesn't change the fact. It is a religion, not a race. If they needed a place of their own they should have worked that out in europe or the u.s. where nobody was going to wage war against them, or even better just give up the idea of having their own country.
Israel is a reality so there is no reason for Israeli citizens to give up their country after over 70 years. As for a place of their own, Judaism specifies that the land of Israel is where one should live as part of being Jewish so no other place in the world would work. FYI, the Zionist movement considered establishing a homeland in Uganda (see The Uganda Proposal (1903)) but this was ultimately rejected.
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