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Old 07-14-2018, 08:00 AM
 
19,573 posts, read 8,513,185 times
Reputation: 10096

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The Russians "interfered" in our elections in 2016, and have been actively interfering in elections around the world since WWII and likely before that. The form of their "election interference" was spying by hacking, spreading disinformation and socially disruptive "Active measures" campaigns, all of which the Russians and the Soviets have been engaged in towards us for decades.

Now, even though this has been occurring non-stop for decades, and certainly occurred every day that Barack Obama was in office, starting the day after Donald Trump defeated Hillary Clinton in the 2016 presidential election, the Democrats have all of the sudden decided that this is the greatest scandal in the history of our country, and is also one of the greatest scandals in the history of the world.

It is a problem that needs to be addressed and has needed to be addressed going back to at least the 1950's. So why has this not been seriously addressed before now?

If we all of the sudden want to start openly punishing this sort of spy/espionage activity by foreign actors, then we should respond in a way that will actually provide a serious disincentive to ever doing this again. Does anyone believe that a domestic (DOJ) indictment of 12 members of the Russian military will have that effect?

Think about what has just happened here. It used to be that nations mounted up armed forces under a declaration of war used violent force to impose their nation's will onto another opposing nation.

During the "Cold war," there was a good deal of violence, but most of the conflict was in the form of espionage and spying between us, the USSR, and also other countries. Sowing disinformation and undermining governments became primary tools of the "cold war" warfare.

Now, our Department of Justice has filed a series of lawsuits against Russian spies, as if spying or espionage of this sort were an international crime of sort, such as a violation of the Geneva conventions would be. We have filed a domestic lawsuit against the Russians for what is effectively spying and espionage activities.

Now what does our DOJ expect to happen next?

The Russians are expected to ignore the lawsuit, which is a demonstration of how weak this policy approach is to this sort of activity. However, what could happen is that the Russians do respond and make Mueller and the DOJ "prove it" in court, as they did during the previous set of indictments. That is not likely to end well, as even if they can "prove it" - and it is not at all clear that they can - what would the penalty be to Russia? Even if one or more of these Russian military officers were to fly over and present themselves for long prison sentences, would that cause Russia to stop doing this sort of thing?

Of course not.

Since this approach is not clearly not going to be effective, what can we do to stop or at least substantially mitigate these sorts of attacks against our country? What do you think?
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:10 AM
 
8,886 posts, read 4,573,123 times
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These 12 indictments were just eye candy for the hat wearing brigade. Nothing of substance, of course.

Last edited by CaseyB; 07-14-2018 at 09:35 AM.. Reason: language
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Former land of plenty
3,212 posts, read 1,651,114 times
Reputation: 2017
People who hate America don't give a rats rear about Russian spies.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,879,874 times
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The Democrats are simple, once again, blaming someone else for their failures.

In a free society "disinformation" must be tolerated.

The best defense is an educated and informed voter.

I think most disinformation may do a bit to increase turnout but I can't see too many people changing their vote from one party to another based on the disinformation that is thrown out. Most of it is aimed at people who already have highly partisan views and are ready to believe almost any dirt thrown at opposing parties and their candidates.

Personally, I think we should go back to paper ballots. Back to the future.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Former land of plenty
3,212 posts, read 1,651,114 times
Reputation: 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
The Democrats are simple, once again, blaming someone else for their failures.

In a free society "disinformation" must be tolerated.

The best defense is an educated and informed voter.

I think most disinformation may do a bit to increase turnout but I can't see too many people changing their vote from one party to another based on the disinformation that is thrown out. Most of it is aimed at people who already have highly partisan views and are ready to believe almost any dirt thrown at opposing parties and their candidates.
I see the failure to protect ourselves from the pro-GOP Kremlin. Doesn't stop the fact that America's #1 enemy is its own Republican Party.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:26 AM
 
19,573 posts, read 8,513,185 times
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One reason why we have not addressed this forcefully in a public way before now is that we engage in a certain amount of this sort of conduct ourselves. Like it or not, this severely undercuts our moral authority on this issue.

Here is a list of some of the known instances of the US interfering in other nation's elections over the years. Surely there are others. But these at least are documented.
2016: UK (verbal intervention against Brexit)
2015: Israel (Obama admin funded opposition to Netanyahu with taxpayer dollars)
2014: Afghanistan (effectively re-writing Afghan constitution)
2014: UK (verbal intervention against Scottish independence)
2012: Russia (Encouraging protests and opposition groups)
2011: Libya (providing support to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi)
2009: Honduras (ousting President Zelaya)
2006: Palestine (providing support to oust Prime Minister Haniyeh)
2005: Syria (providing support against President al-Assad)
2003: Iran (providing support against President Khatami)-
2003: Iraq (ousting of President Hussein)
2002: Venezuela (providing support to attempt an overthrow of President Chavez)
1999: Yugoslavia (removing Yugoslav forces from Kosovo)
1994: Iraq (attempted overthrow of President Hussein)
1991: Haiti (ousting President Aristide)
1991: Kuwait (removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait)
1989: Panama (ousting General Noriega)
1983: Grenada (ousting General Austin's Marxist forces)
1982: Nicaragua (providing support
1971: Chile (ousting President Allende)
1967: Indonesia (ousting President Sukarno)
1964: Brazil (ousting President Goulart)
1964: Chile (providing support against Salvador Allende)
1961: Congo (assassination of leader Lumumba)
1958: Lebanon (providing support to Christian political parties)
1954: Guatemala (ousting President Arbenz)
1953: Iran (ousting Prime Minister Mossadegh)
1953: Philippines (providing support to the President Magsaysay campaign)
1948: Italy (providing support to the Christian Democrats campaign)
For us to expect the Russians and others to stop interfering in our society in the manner that they have been, we will likely have to commit to reducing our interference into theirs.

It is not at all clear that we are committed to exercising that sort of restraint, nor is it clear that it would always be wise for us to do so.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:27 AM
 
8,886 posts, read 4,573,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlongTheI-5 View Post
People who hate America don't give a rats rear about Russian spies.
Which would apparently include all Democrats until, well, Trump.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:28 AM
 
34,300 posts, read 15,640,522 times
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We could ask the Dems to stop cooperating with Putin and Russia, but they want the same things. ( socialism & communism ) I'm not sure we would get any better response than we got from Putin which is denial.

We could sanction Rosenstein from giving a lecture on politics after his disclosure of a indictment. The DOJ is not suppose to be political in its action or interfering in elections and certainly not months before another midterm election.
Interesting to note that the media is claiming the indictment is proof of Russian interference in the 2016 election. However no evidence, which is proof, is disclosed. An indictment is an accusation not proof. The proof would have to be presented in court and disclosed to defendants. They would have to give the accused what they are refusing to give to the American public. The accused, who is basically the enemy, are entitled to know what the DOJ wants to hide from the public.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:30 AM
 
Location: SE Asia
16,236 posts, read 5,875,030 times
Reputation: 9117
Well to the OP. A good start would be to stop doing it to others.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:33 AM
 
Location: SE Asia
16,236 posts, read 5,875,030 times
Reputation: 9117
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlongTheI-5 View Post
I see the failure to protect ourselves from the pro-GOP Kremlin. Doesn't stop the fact that America's #1 enemy is its own Republican Party.
Whoa there hero. Wasn't it the democrats who accused the GOP of being stuck in Cold War thinking. Didn't they say the Right was making Russia the Boogey man? Wasn't it Obama's hot mic moment making promises of cooperation once he was re-elected?
America's number one enemy is party hardliners who are blind to the misdeeds of their own party.
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