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Old 10-17-2018, 12:43 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,452,870 times
Reputation: 14266

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
^^^^^ more hysteria from the left. What American "values" is Trump undermining that never happened before Trump? I voted for Trump and support him. Tell me what values I'm undermining? what a joke!
International politics makes for strange bedfellows. We routinely have to engage with countries that have a poor human rights record. This is nothing new.

But what used to happen is that we would wield our influence in a way to support certain shared values. We'd say "if you're going to be our ally and want the best deals, then we're interested in seeing that you uphold certain levels of freedom, etc." It's a fine line, because you of course can't go too far in telling others how to live. But this matters.

Words matter. When Trump comes in and speaks admiringly of dictators and telegraphs to Saudi Arabia that we're not going to look into how you operate in our dealings with you, it emboldens these kinds of things.

And Trump is making it pretty clear that he doesn't care about government leadership in supposed allied nations murdering dissidents and journalists. There is no standard of any kind for him. He's already basically saying that he's going to give them a pass on this. He's even helping them excuse their way out of this.

Now, of course, it's maybe late to change course. Saudi Arabia will retaliate and potentially shift to find new friends if the US does anything. What would have been better is to have a consistent, visible policy up front of "if you're going to get into certain dealings with us, this is what we expect of how you'll operate."
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Old 10-17-2018, 12:56 PM
 
25,445 posts, read 9,809,749 times
Reputation: 15337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultor View Post
My 2 cents:

Just this year, Ukraine faked the murder of a journalist... it's best not to rush in half-cocked in these situations.
This ain't that.
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:07 PM
 
8,059 posts, read 3,946,325 times
Reputation: 5356
Quote:
Originally Posted by trobesmom View Post
This ain't that.
We'll see.
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:09 PM
 
25,445 posts, read 9,809,749 times
Reputation: 15337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultor View Post
We'll see.
Yeah, we will. Evidence is constantly coming out. But Trump doesn't want to believe it either.
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:16 PM
 
Location: alexandria, VA
16,352 posts, read 8,097,884 times
Reputation: 9726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
It seems as if the anti-Trump people won't be happy until we are involved in yet another war in the Middle East.
How about we just stop selling arms to the Saudis so they can no longer slaughter women and children in Yemen?
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:18 PM
 
8,059 posts, read 3,946,325 times
Reputation: 5356
Quote:
Originally Posted by trobesmom View Post
Yeah, we will. Evidence is constantly coming out. But Trump doesn't want to believe it either.
Actually, to date, only rumors of evidence have come out.
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:23 PM
 
11,046 posts, read 5,273,201 times
Reputation: 5253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
International politics makes for strange bedfellows. We routinely have to engage with countries that have a poor human rights record. This is nothing new.

But what used to happen is that we would wield our influence in a way to support certain shared values. We'd say "if you're going to be our ally and want the best deals, then we're interested in seeing that you uphold certain levels of freedom, etc." It's a fine line, because you of course can't go too far in telling others how to live. But this matters.

Words matter. When Trump comes in and speaks admiringly of dictators and telegraphs to Saudi Arabia that we're not going to look into how you operate in our dealings with you, it emboldens these kinds of things.

And Trump is making it pretty clear that he doesn't care about government leadership in supposed allied nations murdering dissidents and journalists. There is no standard of any kind for him. He's already basically saying that he's going to give them a pass on this. He's even helping them excuse their way out of this.

Now, of course, it's maybe late to change course. Saudi Arabia will retaliate and potentially shift to find new friends if the US does anything. What would have been better is to have a consistent, visible policy up front of "if you're going to get into certain dealings with us, this is what we expect of how you'll operate."

words matter? NO! Actions matter. The United States has a long history of supporting and aiding dictatorships as long that it protects our interests in the world from FDR supporting Stalin, Our government supporting the Shah and the list is long including Saudi Arabia.



Our government supports"rebels" that are worse than the regime they are trying to bring down that not only murders dissents and journalists but any civilian that doesn't go along with their extremist view.


So stop with the Hypocrisy and B.S. and you better learn our history and the CIA in our foreign policy......every President in both parties have supported bad regimes. In the world, there are bad and worse options. If we cut ties with Saudi, who is going to take over the region? somebody worse. Turkey, the source of these allegations have a long rivalry with Saudi Arabia for control of the region and they are not any better.



This is 1 journalist in a region that people get kill or disappear all the time and nobody gives a cr@p except when Turkey with the help of the media is making this into an international crisis and for what? this is not our problem.


Words Matter? NO, actions matter and we are hypocrites if we make a big deal about this when is not our problem.
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:27 PM
 
Location: alexandria, VA
16,352 posts, read 8,097,884 times
Reputation: 9726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultor View Post
Actually, to date, only rumors of evidence have come out.
So it's all a hoax, eh? Do you think George Soros is behind it?
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Canada
7,680 posts, read 5,530,949 times
Reputation: 8817
Quote:
The Saudis promised the Trump administration $100 million to help the United States’ efforts in Syria this summer — and in a suspicious turn of events, that money was suddenly deposited in U.S. bank accounts as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo landed in Riyadh for what would be a discordantly friendly meeting with Saudi officials about their alleged murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/1...ds-for-meeting
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:34 PM
 
11,046 posts, read 5,273,201 times
Reputation: 5253
Quote:
Originally Posted by trobesmom View Post
Yeah, we will. Evidence is constantly coming out. But Trump doesn't want to believe it either.

"evidence" like WMD in Iraq? like the Syrian government gassed 60 people when it could have been the rebels? you mean the "evidence" from Turkey sources who nobody should trust who hates Saudi Arabia and have a rivalry with them to control the region?


All this because 1 person gets killed in that region? that is NOT our problem.
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