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This thread is the Republican inability to see anything that's not black and white... pared down to it's essence. Vapid is the word that comes to mind.
I think majority of that money belongs to me, but a percentage belongs to the society because let's be fair, we cannot survive without other people because we are social animals.
Yes, you do need to pay taxes.
I agree that we are social animals and need to work together and live in societies to survive. I disagree that what you earn belongs to anyone else simply by living near them.
If I ask you to mow my lawn for $100, you happily agree, mow my lawn, and I give you $100, some other person can't come along and claim a right to some of that $100. The agreement was between you and I, and the transaction is now completely over.
Many will claim that you owe "society" because "society" provides things and you are paying "society" back. First, unless they can provide a specific example of a good or service you chose to use and didn't pay for - which does NOT include goods or services given to you when you never requested or wanted in the first place - then you have no obligation to give them money. They're trying to overcomplicate things to the point where you think you owe them something you actually don't.
Second, it means nothing to owe "society". You owe the person or people who you agreed to pay for a good or service. End of transaction. You don't owe some vague amount of money to some vague collective of people in addition to that. You already held up your end of the bargain.
I agree that we are social animals and need to work together and live in societies to survive. I disagree that what you earn belongs to anyone else simply by living near them.
If I ask you to mow my lawn for $100, you happily agree, mow my lawn, and I give you $100, some other person can't come along and claim a right to some of that $100. The agreement was between you and I, and the transaction is now completely over.
Many will claim that you owe "society" because "society" provides things and you are paying "society" back. First, unless they can provide a specific example of a good or service you chose to use and didn't pay for - which does NOT include goods or services given to you when you never requested or wanted in the first place - then you have no obligation to give them money. They're trying to overcomplicate things to the point where you think you owe them something you actually don't.
Second, it means nothing to "owe society". Who specifically is society? You owe the person or people who you agreed to pay for a good or service. End of transaction. You don't owe some vague amount of money to some vague collective of people in addition to that. You already held up your end of the bargain.
I know you would quote my post (since I am the only one mentioning taxes and I know what your opinions are regarding taxes) and I seriously am not interested in debating with you. I am not saying this to be mean, but as for now, I don't have time to elaborate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E
I agree that we are social animals and need to work together and live in societies to survive. I disagree that what you earn belongs to anyone else simply by living near them.
If I ask you to mow my lawn for $100, you happily agree, mow my lawn, and I give you $100, some other person can't come along and claim a right to some of that $100. The agreement was between you and I, and the transaction is now completely over.
Many will claim that you owe "society" because "society" provides things and you are paying "society" back. First, unless they can provide a specific example of a good or service you chose to use and didn't pay for - which does NOT include goods or services given to you when you never requested or wanted in the first place - then you have no obligation to give them money. They're trying to overcomplicate things to the point where you think you owe them something you actually don't.
Second, it means nothing to owe "society". You owe the person or people who you agreed to pay for a good or service. End of transaction. You don't owe some vague amount of money to some vague collective of people in addition to that. You already held up your end of the bargain.
I pay to have maintenance on my property and pay by the month...and each month when I get the bill it includes a sales tax....and the agreement is between my maintenance man, me and the government.
The thing I disagree with is 'redistribution of wealth' concept as that concept weakens society by putting a halt to innovation and new discoveries.
This thread is the Republican inability to see anything that's not black and white... pared down to it's essence. Vapid is the word that comes to mind.
Apparently, you are unaware of the REPUBLICAN form of government, instituted by the Declaration of Independence, wherein the American people are "sovereigns without subjects," and the president is merely the highest ranking public SERVANT, one step down in status from the lowest American sovereign.
But it is to be expected, since most Americans are victims of the world's greatest propaganda ministry, and are loathe to read their own laws and history.
REPUBLICAN FORM
GOVERNMENT (Republican Form of Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people ... directly...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695
". . . at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects, and have none to govern but themselves. . ."
- - - Justice John Jay, Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. 2 Dall. 419 419 (1793)
"What I do say is that no man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle, the sheet-anchor of American republicanism. Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
- - - Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Peoria, Illinois (1854)
As Lincoln reminds us, under the republican form, promised by the USCON, described by the Declaration of Independence, NO MAN (nor American government) is good enough to govern you without your consent. Without your consent, all that government is authorized to do is secure endowed (sacred) rights (prosecute trespass; adjudicate disputes; defend against enemies, foreign or domestic).
" Personal liberty, or the Right to enjoyment of life and liberty, is one of the fundamental or natural Rights, which has been protected by its inclusion as a guarantee in the various constitutions, which is not derived from, or dependent on, the U.S. Constitution, which may not be submitted to a vote and may not depend on the outcome of an election. It is one of the most sacred and valuable Rights, as sacred as the Right to private property...and is regarded as inalienable."
- - - 16 Corpus Juris Secundum, Constitutional Law, Sect.202, p.987.
In this excerpt we see that sacred rights encompass natural rights, personal liberty, and the right to private property (i.e., absolutely owned by an individual).
NATURAL RIGHTS - ... are the rights of life, liberty, privacy, and good reputation.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p. 1324
Short review of the foundation of American law - - -
" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."
--- Declaration of Independence, 1776
CONTRAST THAT WITH THIS:
“It may be laid down, as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every citizen who enjoys the protection of a free government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency.”
- - - George Washington; "Sentiments on a Peace Establishment" in a letter to Alexander Hamilton (2 May 1783); published in The Writings of George Washington (1938), edited by John C. Fitzpatrick, Vol. 26, p. 289.
[... Every citizen ... owes a portion of his property ... and services in defense ... in the militia ... from 18 to 50 years of age... ]
IN SHORT,
The American citizen has no endowed right to life, nor liberty, nor absolute ownership because, as a subject, he can be ordered to train, fight, and die, on command (militia duty), and was obligated to give up a portion of his property (taxes, etc).
However, that does not negate the endowed rights of the American people (noncitizens) who did not consent to be governed.
BUT if you consented, shut up, sit down, pay and obey.
WHY?
BECAUSE Citizens are NOT sovereigns
"CITIZEN - ... Citizens are members of a political community who, in their associative capacity, have established or submitted themselves to the dominion of government for the promotion of the general welfare and the protection of their individual as well as collective rights. "
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p.244
"... the term 'citizen,' in the United States, is analogous to the term "subject" in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government. ... he who before was a "subject of the King" is now a citizen of the State."
- - - State v. Manuel, 20 N.C. 144 (1838)
SUBJECT - One that owes allegiance to a sovereign and is governed by his laws.
...Men in free governments are subjects as well as citizens; as citizens they enjoy rights and franchises; as subjects they are bound to obey the laws. The term is little used, in this sense, in countries enjoying a republican form of government.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1425
So which one are you?
[] One of the Sovereign People who directly exercise sovereignty over their person, liberty and property, whose endowed rights are secured by government?
[] Or one of the subject citizens who indirectly exercise sovereignty via delegation to representatives, and have surrendered endowed rights in exchange for civil and political liberties (i.e."rights") by consent to be governed?
it's actually not a simple question at all. The nature of money, what it is, its role in society as a method of exchange of work and storage of wealth, and its future in a society rapidly moving towards automation and obsolescence of labor, are very complex topics.
Then of course you have the more philosophical study of the individual versus society, and the evolution of our societal obligations as population grows, technology improves, and resources are depleted.
But yeah, let's just pretend it's a simple question for a poll
No.
The money that you have legally earned belongs to you.
It is not complicated. People want to make it complicated to disguise their desire to steal that money from the person who legally earned it.
Realistically, the money we earned doesn't belong to anyone. You have to pay your mortgage, bills, feed your kids, pay your taxes which pay for national security, police, public infrastructure, schools, etc. In the end....you are really working for society in exchange for security and survival, so you can pass on your genes and knowledge to the next generation.
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"Home is where the heart is"
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Location: Northwest Peninsula
6,327 posts, read 3,472,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow
END the 16th Amendment and be done with that bad experiment in government full control over the People.
And just how would all levels of government operate? Without taxation who would fix the pot holes? Supply your water, school your kids, fire department, police protection, military, border security etc.etc.
You know all those things people like you take for granted.
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