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I'm not trying to. A random poster saying they need more people that can code doesn't prove a thing. I simply asked that if you want this you have to prove there is a need for it.
that is exactly why more people dont know to code.
so many people are very mathphobic, and programming gives people a chance to learn math in an easier way, and then people like you go and turn it into the stuff of their nightmares-- because to you, that makes it simpler.
its sabotage. as disasterous as breaking into some elderly persons car and putting in 3 more steering wheels (most of which dont do anything) and several pedals-- whats the worst that could happen?
exactly so.
but people are more impressed by graphical programs than text-based ones, and you cant really explain how windows works and avoid the topic of pixels-- unless you just want to say "its all functions-- really." which i do, but not until i explain how pixels work.
look at the intro to programming at mit, look at codecademy, your joke has the dubious merit of being technically correct and useless in practical terms.
if the goal is to keep people out of your profession, job well done-- im not paranoid enough to think thats what youre looking for.
which is a program or a series of programs.
not to understand computing. or coding. but definitely to understand operating systems.
look, more people are going to learn python or javascript or something like that first.
theyre going to build up to function calls, which theyre really doing the entire time.
yes, the function calls are object methods. yes, python is typically implemented in c and javascript in c++, pointers galore, which you can certainly make use of.
python and javascript both mean most people will never have to understand pointers. but if they want to write operating systems, they probably will.
youre letting your specialty make coding into something more complicated than it is. we dont technically need higher level languages at all-- but even grace hopper realised that most people who code dont want scientific equations.
here she was, inventing the compiler and teaching university mathematics, and she insisted on words over symbols. "it will never work."
now its the basis for most modern languages. your mindset is the one she knew better than to foist commercially. the truth will always be somewhere between what she said and what the rest of them did. its clear what side of that youre on-- i will say most of it isnt wrong, just the part where your list is going to help more people than mine can.
if you want everyone to learn how to code, youre going to have to step away from the code at least long enough to figure out what people are actually capable of learning. grace hopper did, and i doubt you outrank her on any level, with all due respect.
once everyone knows how to code, they might have a chance at all understanding pointers. either way, most wont ever use that knowledge twice. not because pointers arent useful-- but because avoiding using them directly often is (outside of stuff like what you were doing-- which isnt typical coding. most coders will not work directly on operating systems.)
you wont just lose students with all that-- youll basically be recruiting more teachers to figure out how the hell to keep this out of schools for as long as possible. and theyre fighting it. they dont need to be more afraid.
But most developers work with operating systems, and not understanding their fundamental mechanisms causes ridiculous problems. They work with databases too, with the same outcomes. There is not one developer who works with neither operating systems nor databases.To be honest a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
True story, CM grad, new hire pushed his changes outside of prescribed (by editing the distro server) causing a cascade failure that took out a 50,000 machine data cluster for 6 hours. All because even though he was developing in a runtime language, he didn't understand pointers, and how that runtime performed its execution, nor how the whole system responded to failures.
Now sure that's a rarity, and it was using some esoteria of that specific language. However how many apps do you run that are slow memory hogs that really hardly do anything more than encapsulate a browser? Wanna know why? Bad housekeeping, and accessing things entirely orthogonal to its operation.
As a professional software engineer, I'll take the guy with no prior experience, than the guy who has futzed around a bit. One has no habits, the other has bad habits (guaranteed). So given any SDE worth the title has a job at a development company, who is going to mould these minds in the skills of development? Instilling good habits? You? Nope, your list is facile and of little benefit over good math. If someone doesn't realize y=mx+c is a linear function theres little hope of asking them to write a "Ciao Mondo" function, I mean theres a reason that in sw engineering function is a term used to mean principally the same as a math function. Those minds would benefit far more by learning basic algebra.
Coding is logic-based, no? Therefore, that's going to automatically rule out those whose cognitive processes are based on emotions.
by that argument, so does arithmetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir
But most developers work with operating systems, and not understanding their fundamental mechanisms causes ridiculous problems. They work with databases too, with the same outcomes. There is not one developer who works with neither operating systems nor databases.To be honest a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
True story, CM grad, new hire pushed his changes outside of prescribed (by editing the distro server) causing a cascade failure that took out a 50,000 machine data cluster for 6 hours. All because even though he was developing in a runtime language, he didn't understand pointers, and how that runtime performed its execution, nor how the whole system responded to failures.
Now sure that's a rarity, and it was using some esoteria of that specific language.[/quote]
indeed it brings immediate scepticism about security, if someone can just traipse over a landmine like that which then destroys itself. but lets be fair and say i get your point either way.
Quote:
However how many apps do you run that are slow memory hogs that really hardly do anything more than encapsulate a browser? Wanna know why? Bad housekeeping, and accessing things entirely orthogonal to its operation.
yes but as much the fault of politics (project politics) and shortcuts (it runs, ship it) than the coders.
Quote:
As a professional software engineer, I'll take the guy with no prior experience, than the guy who has futzed around a bit. One has no habits, the other has bad habits (guaranteed). So given any SDE worth the title has a job at a development company, who is going to mould these minds in the skills of development? Instilling good habits? You? Nope, your list is facile and of little benefit over good math.
i really think youre ignoring the fact that most introductions to coding are closer to my list than yours. not just recently-- for the past few decades. you are really laying in harshly to something conventional and accessible.
reality check: what do you think linus torvalds first line of code was? thats the hole in your argument-- reality vs. your ideal situation.
Quote:
If someone doesn't realize y=mx+c is a linear function theres little hope of asking them to write a "Ciao Mondo" function, I mean theres a reason that in sw engineering function is a term used to mean principally the same as a math function. Those minds would benefit far more by learning basic algebra.
after fear, the biggest reason more people dont understand coding is that everyone has a better idea, and we end up settling on "alright, nothing then."
your server was not likely configured well, the people in charge of hiring are also to blame.
most people are not going to learn pointers, ever-- even if they learn to code. most people dont use or care about algebra, and are more likely to appreciate it after having an application for it than before.
i dont know what your deal is, but its just not realistic. its idealistic, and has a serious impedance-mismatch with what education can and ought to do, and (more importantly) when.
Last edited by dynamicjson; 03-08-2019 at 06:26 AM..
Exactly, which is why there's an irreconcilable dissonance between AGWs, ACCs (Anthropogenic Climate Changers), etc., ...and those who think mathematically, scientifically, logically.
When you cannot show the science and/or math to prove your point, you're wrong. Period.
LOL, from teaching coding in schools to global warming just like that..........
Resolve the issue... We've been presented with emotions-based non-scientific, non-math-based AGW/ACC assertions vs. logical actual scientific and mathematical reality... GO!
Chicago is one of them. It has partnered with Apple and Northwestern University to provide professional training to teachers. The goal is to make Computer Sciences/ Coding a core requirement.
The basis of such education is the development of problem solving skills- a cognitive process to discover, analyze and solve every day problems, with or without technology.
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...and those who think mathematically, scientifically, logically. 