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Well "Eddie", to begin with, they are "illegal aliens:", and your hazing over that fact, calling them "undocumented immigrants" doesn't cut it.
Own up to the fact these illegal aliens are illegal, because they entered this country illegally.
What part of that word do you not understand.
Altering their "status", doesn't change one thing, THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY.
I agree about ending birthright citizenship for babies born on our soil from illegal aliens also. The Dreamers however weren't born here they were born in another country and brought over our border illegally.
I understand that. But the argument (which I agree with 100%) was if we granted Dreamers' citizenship, that incentivizes illegals to make it across and give birth to a meal ticket. Grant Dreamers citizenship, but ONLY after we end birthright citizenship.
Yep. Britain and most, if not all the western EU countries use the poorest Europeans to work their fields. The EU benefits from having a migrant population from poor Eastern European countries. They don't have an illegal alien issue bc their "illegal aliens" are free to cross the border and work, per the EU agreement.
If Brexit happens, guess what the first industry to get rocked is going to be? Agriculture. And guess what they're #1 complaint is? The lack of local workers they'll have to replace the migrants.
You know what advanced country doesn't use a migrant work force for their ag industry? Japan -- home of the $32/lb watermelon and $24/ea apples! Fruit is so goddamn expensive in Japan that they're given as wedding gifts bc of the luxury price tag.
That's what it looks like when you pay locals enough to do the work that migrants typically do.
What a ridiculous argument. Japan has expensive fruit because they're an island. It has nothing to do with migrant workers. Goods are expensive on Hawaii for the same reason.
What a ridiculous argument. Japan has expensive fruit because they're an island. It has nothing to do with migrant workers. Goods are expensive on Hawaii for the same reason.
It is a ridiculous argument because myself and others in here have told him that there are unlimited visas for legal, foreign crop pickers over and over again and only 2-4% of illegal aliens are picking crops anyway. Yet he keeps repeating the crop picking argument like a broken record.
I understand that. But the argument (which I agree with 100%) was if we granted Dreamers' citizenship, that incentivizes illegals to make it across and give birth to a meal ticket. Grant Dreamers citizenship, but ONLY after we end birthright citizenship.
We differ on giving the Dreamers citizenship or even amnesty. I oppose it and I have stated the many reasons why in a previous post.
Why should we import people to do jobs and pay them less than our own people would demand as pay? And, why should we tolerate the employers skirting the law and not contributing to SS, or Workers' Compensation or adhering to OSHA regulations?
Actually many do contribute to SS and never receive a cent.
It is a ridiculous argument because myself and others in here have told him that there are unlimited visas for legal, foreign crop pickers over and over again and only 2-4% of illegal aliens are picking crops anyway. Yet he keeps repeating the crop picking argument like a broken record.
The other 96 to 98% also benefit consumers by driving down wages. A great deal for us people skilled enough to not be competing with illegals in the labor market.
Despite the hatred dripping off your post, you're more on the mark than practically everyone else trying to dismiss this.
But you give a lot of credit to Democrats and Illegals to come up w/ a 30 year plan that won't see results for decades. Why can't it just be that these people want to work and support their families and Democrats are okay with that? Why do you need to create this grand scheme when the much simpler, non-conspiratorial angle is that it's cheap to work in America and support your family at home?
"Why does the left want immigration?"
It is my belief that politics tends to force you to "pick a team". You don't actually have to agree with your team on everything. In fact, you may only agree with your team on a single issue. But regardless of if you disagree with your team on almost everything, you still need them to win. If they win, you win. If they lose, you lose. And so you feel compelled to support and defend them, even where you disagree with them.
The democrats don't need a 30-year plan as it comes to immigration. And they wouldn't support immigration if it didn't benefit them. Just like Democrats wouldn't support lowering the voting-age if it didn't benefit them. And just like Republicans wouldn't support Voter-ID laws if it didn't benefit them. And Democrats wouldn't support giving felons a right-to-vote if it didn't benefit them. Politics is a cynical game for power and control.
But the Democrats and Republicans aren't a monolith. They are coalitions of various groups. The Democrats play identity-politics because they need minority votes to win. Democrats haven't received a majority of the white vote since Harry Truman.
I could be wrong, but I don't think people believe what they claim to believe, or what they even think they believe. Most people are lazy, and latch onto simple and useful ideas, especially things which make them feel like they are on the intellectual or moral high-ground.
The example I often give, is how the massive "Libertarian movement" turned into Trump-fever. But how do people go from libertarians to supporting Trump? The truth is, they were never libertarians in the first place, they just hated liberalism. Libertarianism was a way to "escape" liberalism. But with Trump, they no longer needed to escape it, since they could control it.
This is also why so-called "patriots" are often secessionists. No one actually loves this country, except insofar as it benefits them, and they believe they can control it.
I think you would be amazed by how quickly these people on "the left" would change their position on immigration because I don't think immigration is actually important to most democrats. Basically, if they had to choose between open-borders and free healthcare, they would choose free healthcare. If they had to choose between open-borders and gay-marriage, or a higher minimum-wage, they would throw open-borders in the trash where it belongs.
They only pretend to be in favor of immigration. Not because immigration benefits them directly(it actually hurts them), but because it helps their party win elections, and thus helps them get something they actually want.
Which explains the cynical relationship between the far-left, and ultraconservative muslim and hispanic immigrants.
Between you and the other guy, y'all just keep making my points for me.
Thank you.
And just so you're we're clear, thank you for breaking down that Americans will not replace migrant workers bc:
"Americans want full-time year round work, instead of seasonal work"
"Most Americans looking for work live in urban and suburban areas---IOW no where near the farms. "
"Many don't have reliable transportation."
"Driving 3 hours or so each way to work means gas costs will be high. Sometimes, high enough that there is little left after paying for it."
Did you want to add anymore reasons for why Americans won't replace undocumented ag workers of we kick them all out?
Immigrants can do something Americans can't? Judging from that list of obstacles its amazing that immigrants can get to work. Just saying ...
It is my belief that politics tends to force you to "pick a team". You don't actually have to agree with your team on everything. In fact, you may only agree with your team on a single issue. But regardless of if you disagree with your team on almost everything, you still need them to win. If they win, you win. If they lose, you lose. And so you feel compelled to support and defend them, even where you disagree with them.
The democrats don't need a 30-year plan as it comes to immigration. And they wouldn't support immigration if it didn't benefit them. Just like Democrats wouldn't support lowering the voting-age if it didn't benefit them. And just like Republicans wouldn't support Voter-ID laws if it didn't benefit them. And Democrats wouldn't support giving felons a right-to-vote if it didn't benefit them. Politics is a cynical game for power and control.
But the Democrats and Republicans aren't a monolith. They are coalitions of various groups. The Democrats play identity-politics because they need minority votes to win. Democrats haven't received a majority of the white vote since Harry Truman.
I could be wrong, but I don't think people believe what they claim to believe, or what they even think they believe. Most people are lazy, and latch onto simple and useful ideas, especially things which make them feel like they are on the intellectual or moral high-ground.
The example I often give, is how the massive "Libertarian movement" turned into Trump-fever. But how do people go from libertarians to supporting Trump? The truth is, they were never libertarians in the first place, they just hated liberalism. Libertarianism was a way to "escape" liberalism. But with Trump, they no longer needed to escape it, since they could control it.
This is also why so-called "patriots" are often secessionists. No one actually loves this country, except insofar as it benefits them, and they believe they can control it.
I think you would be amazed by how quickly these people on "the left" would change their position on immigration because I don't think immigration is actually important to most democrats. Basically, if they had to choose between open-borders and free healthcare, they would choose free healthcare. If they had to choose between open-borders and gay-marriage, or a higher minimum-wage, they would throw open-borders in the trash where it belongs.
They only pretend to be in favor of immigration. Not because immigration benefits them directly(it actually hurts them), but because it helps their party win elections, and thus helps them get something they actually want.
Which explains the cynical relationship between the far-left, and ultraconservative muslim and hispanic immigrants.
"In Lincoln, the face of immigrant labor is changing. Workers are harder to come by, and immigrant labor is no longer the exclusive domain of Mexicans and Central Americans.
It's a dynamic playing out across the U.S.
By 2020, the private sector will be facing a shortage of 7.5 million workers, said Ali Noorani, of the National Immigration Forum, a Washington-based think tank, citing a study by the American Action Forum, a moderate policy institute that promotes rights for immigrants. And the U.S. had the fewest newborns last year since 1978, according to a new report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The worker shortage is only likely to get worse."
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