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Someone posted a question asking why the poor choose to be poor? Most responded that most of the poor don’t choose to be poor, but sometimes circumstances knock them down into poverty.
My question is, Why can’t the wealthy ever be satisfied? Why isn’t a million dollars or millions of dollars enough? Why do they think they need umpteen homes and cars, fancy clothes, jets, and every electronic gadget known to man? Granted they employee gardeners, maids and other house servants, drivers, pilots and tailors that help maintain the homes, cars, fly the jets and adjust the clothes to fit right. But usually they are underpaid and overworked.
Most of the wealthy have earned their wealth on the backs of others. These backs are either their employees or the consumers who have to scrape together every penny to purchase their product or use their services.
Some may have built a business from the ground up and worked hard at first to make it a success, but once they start seeing huge profits coming in they get lazy and stop working as hard. They hire employees to do the work they once did but still desire to have huge profits and at any cost. When they see a drop in the profit margin they start cutting corners, cutting jobs, and seek low cost labor forces (like in China) just so they can make huge profits to stuff in their pockets.
I’m all for profit, but when is there enough? When do employers and or companies start saying that the profit is more than they could ever spend in a lifetime and start spreading the wealth with the employees they hired to help make that profit? Or when do they say we should reduce prices so that more people can afford our product or services?
Once they start seeing the old mighty dollar rolling in they get greedy, pampas and arrogant. They start to forget what hard work is and what it was like to barely have two pennies to rub together. This is concerning the employers who actually built a business/company from the ground up. For the employers and company heads who came into the business because it was daddy’s and it was given to them, they have no real knowledge of what it’s like for the working man. They are just spoiled, snot nosed brats that are even greedier than their old man was.
[MOD CUT/personal attack] How sad. Just remember [MOD CUT/personal attack] , if it wasnt for these greedy businessmen who take all the chances, invest all their money, work 80 hours a week, you would not have a job. Just remember why businesses are moving out of this country we have the 2nd largest corp tax in america, how sad so they move out and you lose out. Also that is a crock, people who are born poor stay poor because they did make a choice. we have so many gov. programs it is sicken for the 16 or 17 yr old mother who already has 2 to 3 kids she can get day care, money etc. to finish her or his education and pull them selves up. but no they just pass on down the line welfare how pathetic but I refuse to support them which is what obama wants for us all to be equal, this is not socialism 101 but a capitalist environment where hard work pays off. my taxes already go for gov. programs to help people which I am all for but sorry you dont get none of my hard earned money for being poor.
diane
Last edited by Ibginnie; 01-05-2009 at 06:59 PM..
Reason: Try to be a little nicer, ok?
I'd also like to know what a non-livable wage is. And even if every person got paid more... their buying power would still stay the same. The real estate prices and the cost of living in Boston is high because of all the higher paying jobs in the area. We have many hospitals, universities, fancy hotels, good law firms and many Fortune 500 companies here, so their employees can afford to pay a lot for the best housing. How can you ask a homeowner to sell his house for less than what the buyers are willing to pay for it? And if it takes more effort to buy something special, doesn't that make the purchase and ownership of it feel more satisfying? Wouldn't owning a $100k car seem less pleasing if everyone was able to buy one? The point of making a trophy purchase or having a trophy wife or girlfriend is the whole concept that not everyone can have one.
We live in a capitalistic society and we ALL love our status symbols. And if you have champagne tastes, then you have to have a plan and to expect to work hard to make your goals. Don't be a crybaby and call the wealthy names or accuse them of being greedy... that's just the mark of a lazy loser. Instead, take action and do something about it. Make your own wealth.
And there's a lot of free advice out there for turning your finances around. There's Suzy Ormond, the Rich Dad, Poor Dad guy, and others. I see their shows aired for free on the PBS channels all of the time. And for a start, instead of trying to buy your way into looking and feeling successful, instead save your money and invest wisely in your future. And Suzy Ormond is right, how many pairs of earrings does a woman really need? She has only one pair of earrings... and I bet that she doesn't go crazy at Christmas maxxing out her credit cards to buy gifts for everyone in her family.
Why does everyone blame the poor for being poor. I know a lot of people who are willing to work and work hard at their jobs. I know people who are willing to work in jobs that most people would find rather disgusting and would rather die first than work there. I also know people who do not have t.v., cable, phones, computers, internet ...etc. and barely have a car that is held together with bailing wire and bubblegum and still can barely afford to survive even with a job. I know alot of folks who were put in poverty levels because someone in their family got sick and they had to quit working to take care of them because they couldn't afford to hire someone to take care of them. Or they themselves got sick or broke a leg or arm and they weren't able to work for awhile and either lost their wages for that time or were fired. I also know that a lot of them have to much pride to seek free money and help. I myself admire that sense of pride.
I don't care what any of you say about, well it's your fault if your not successful, you should get an education and drive your self harder. Again like I said earlier, if everyone in this country were to get the best education out there and drive themselves harder at getting a better job, then where would you find folks to clean motel rooms, who will cook and serve your meals at resturaunts? Who would change your spark plugs or your brakes on your car? Who would pave the streets and roads you drive on? Who would pick up your trash every week? Who would climb down into sewer systems and drudge out trash so that sewage doesn't back up and bubble up all over? Who would do all of the menial labor jobs that even though are highly underpaid but is desperately needed to make our communities a better, safer and cleaner place? There is nothing wrong with these types of jobs and it is honest work but they are highly underpaid jobs and believe it or not, not all of them are as easy to do as one might think. Many of them are back breaking and just as stressful as a white collar job.
Again Employers/companies need employees just as much as employees need employers. If everyone owned their own business and had something to sell who would work for them to help make the product or provide the services they are selling? If one person could by themselves make a car and make quite a few in a day then they deserve to be paid an ungodly wage. If one person could book hotel rooms, clean hotel rooms, do maintanence and manage a large hotel by themselves then they too deserve an ungodly wage.
I'm not saying and never said that employers/companies need to pay their employees as much as themselves. But an honest and fair wage should be paid for an honest days work. To may employers/companies fail to recognize the value of each and every employee.
You try and spend eight hours a day stooped over toilets and beds for a month then you can tell me if the federal minimum wage is plenty for that type of work. Oh and remember you'll also be exposed to hazerdous chemicals that can be caustic to your health while doing so. Oh and also remember that you may or may not have good health coverage to help pay for the doctor you'll eventually have to go to because you've developed some illness from all of the chemicals. Also remember that you have a (if you are lucky) $600 month rent payment, a $200 month heating/cooling bill (because the windows leak and the place is poorly built or old and it's poorly insulated) and groceries to buy, gas to put in the car or public transportation costs.
I think there is a misconception about how people get into high-level corporate executive positions in this day and age in America. It's not really a function of "gumption" or "competence." It has a lot to do with connections, associations, family ties, personal ties, and it is very self-perpetuating. Let's say you run a major company, and want to curry favor with people in the government to bend the regulations your way. So you appoint the son of a key politician to your board of directors. He may not be "the most competent," or even close to it. But he's valuable because of his surname and connections. And he gets paid just like any other member of the board.
I think if people understood how clubby and incestuous corporate boards and the like actually are, they would be a lot more wary of concepts like "the free market." A free market is one thing. A system that gradually tilts toward plutocracy is not a free market, though.
I'm not saying and never said that employers/companies need to pay their employees as much as themselves. But an honest and fair wage should be paid for an honest days work. To may employers/companies fail to recognize the value of each and every employee.
Why should a janitor get paid as much as a computer programmer? Do you know how much a college education costs these days? The janitor that dropped out of high school doesn't have school loans to pay off. Or what about how much it costs to go through medical school, the long hours doing residencies, and then once set up in practice, how much malpractice insurance costs so his patients can sue him?
And in a major city, garbage collectors make very good money. I know a guy whose dad is a long time garbage collector in NYC. As to jobs like housekeeping staff in the major hotels, maybe the money isn't great but one doesn't have to speak English well to do that job and they get paid health benefits. It's a great starter job for recent immigrants. But if they work on their English speaking skills, they could get promoted or move to a better paying department like banquets or be a bellperson.
Why does everyone blame the poor for being poor. I know a lot of people who are willing to work and work hard at their jobs. I know people who are willing to work in jobs that most people would find rather disgusting and would rather die first than work there. I also know people who do not have t.v., cable, phones, computers, internet ...etc. and barely have a car that is held together with bailing wire and bubblegum and still can barely afford to survive even with a job. I know alot of folks who were put in poverty levels because someone in their family got sick and they had to quit working to take care of them because they couldn't afford to hire someone to take care of them. Or they themselves got sick or broke a leg or arm and they weren't able to work for awhile and either lost their wages for that time or were fired. I also know that a lot of them have to much pride to seek free money and help. I myself admire that sense of pride.
Most of the cases you present are truly unfortunate but where there is a will there is a way. Grants for one thing. Something that is most of the time overlooked but one of the most easiest ways to get money THAT YOU NEVER HAVE TO PAY BACK; and you can get a grant for anything. If you have too much pride to go to the government for help in a time of dire need, then you IMHO should stay poor. Call me want you want but I'm not going to suffer unnecessarily because I have too much 'pride' to ask for help; that's stupidity in it's finest if you ask me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter
I don't care what any of you say about, well it's your fault if your not successful, you should get an education and drive your self harder. Again like I said earlier, if everyone in this country were to get the best education out there and drive themselves harder at getting a better job, then where would you find folks to clean motel rooms, who will cook and serve your meals at resturaunts? Who would change your spark plugs or your brakes on your car? Who would pave the streets and roads you drive on? Who would pick up your trash every week? Who would climb down into sewer systems and drudge out trash so that sewage doesn't back up and bubble up all over? Who would do all of the menial labor jobs that even though are highly underpaid but is desperately needed to make our communities a better, safer and cleaner place? There is nothing wrong with these types of jobs and it is honest work but they are highly underpaid jobs and believe it or not, not all of them are as easy to do as one might think. Many of them are back breaking and just as stressful as a white collar job.
I believe it was Regan who said that minimum wage jobs were created and the like were to be for high school students and college students living at home. If we lived in an ideal world, that's how it would work. Everyone would go to college, graduate and get good jobs while those still in college and high school could work minimum wage; but sadly, it's not like that.
And where do you live? Where I come from mechanics, contractors, garbage men, and plumbers all make a very decent wage. Are these jobs that you think might not have good salary (because they do) or do people where you live at really not make that much? If not, they need to move into a city (a large one at that).
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter
Again Employers/companies need employees just as much as employees need employers. If everyone owned their own business and had something to sell who would work for them to help make the product or provide the services they are selling? If one person could by themselves make a car and make quite a few in a day then they deserve to be paid an ungodly wage. If one person could book hotel rooms, clean hotel rooms, do maintanence and manage a large hotel by themselves then they too deserve an ungodly wage.
It's a yin yang type deal. If we didn't have entrepreneurs then we wouldn't have employees and if we didn't have employees we wouldn't have service. Ok, we get it (or at least I do); can we stop beating it to death now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter
I'm not saying and never said that employers/companies need to pay their employees as much as themselves. But an honest and fair wage should be paid for an honest days work. To may employers/companies fail to recognize the value of each and every employee.
But it's the employer and the employee who agree to what a honest day's work is for the particular job. It's not like someone told them they would be getting 70,000 a day for their services then when they start working they say "oops" twas a mistake, I'm only paying you a dollar. Na uh, doesn't work that way my friend. If you don't like the salary your making on that job, then find another one. If you have no choice and have to take the lower paying jobs there is always government assistance and GRANTS (seriously all you have to do is write up what you plan to do with the money and wa la, they give you money). I'm not saying to be a welfare queen or to try to make a living off grant money; it's just a supplement to help in a time off need. Whether you like it or not, there is always a way to make it easier on yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter
You try and spend eight hours a day stooped over toilets and beds for a month then you can tell me if the federal minimum wage is plenty for that type of work. Oh and remember you'll also be exposed to hazerdous chemicals that can be caustic to your health while doing so. Oh and also remember that you may or may not have good health coverage to help pay for the doctor you'll eventually have to go to because you've developed some illness from all of the chemicals. Also remember that you have a (if you are lucky) $600 month rent payment, a $200 month heating/cooling bill (because the windows leak and the place is poorly built or old and it's poorly insulated) and groceries to buy, gas to put in the car or public transportation costs.
And you try to stand for eight hours a day, making food with an air conditioner that breaks, and having to listen to people b*tch at you all day about how the world revolves around them and only them. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt and burned it. I worked a job like that for seven months before I found something less stressful with better pay. No one made me work it; I worked it because I needed the cash flow and I needed it right then. When I had the chance I found something better and went where the opportunities lead me.
And btw, they have those little masks on hand so that people who work in hotels and janitors don't have to be exposed to those chemicals (most don't use them and most mix the chemicals which cause them to be harmful).
And, if it's really that bad, you can always get a roommate to help mitigate the cost. If it's 600 a month get a roommate and hey, magically it's only three. If the utilities run 200 a roommate makes it 100. Now imagine if you just added another person. Sorry if I don't buy into this whole I'm poor and there's nothing I can do because there is ALWAYS something you can do. Just look at those success stories of those who came out of the ghettos and hoods and made something of themselves.
Because not everyone does blame the poor for being poor. No matter how much we think we are in control of our destiny, there is also the element of chance and luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
I don't believe the statement "poor choose to be poor" is in any way accurate. I'm sure some do, but we live in a culture that measures who we are by what we own, so for most people it is a life time quest to gather as much possession as we can get our hands on.
Why can't the wealthy ever be satisfied, I'm sure some are. Others, like many poor folks, are trapped in that cycle of "someone else has something more" so they have to have something more. Who cares, really?
This whole bigger, better, more attitude isn't even inclusive to American culture and I bet if you look in the jungles of South America or out on the plains of Africa, you will find people tribal folks with herds of goats or cows who are trying to acquire more goats and cows.
However the biggest downside to all this is that people then measure themselves by what other people have. There will always be some with more and likely there will be some with less but people will almost always look to those who have more and ask... why them.
PokerPlayer and others......I think you are taking it personally about the use of the word valuable.
Every component of a unit is 'valuable'
Attaching a 'monetary value' to a job is a separate thing.
Seems like nobody is willing to define 'living wage' or what the 'basics' are that one should cover.
Even that suggested Boston amount doesn't specify what standard of living that amount would allow.
There seem to be two types of poor people being discussed in this thread. I feel that the O.P.'s original post was complaining about wealthy American employers not paying their American employees a high enough salary, i.e. a "living wage". And late in the thread, suddenly others are discussing the poor in Africa.
Well... the "poor" in America are nowhere near poor like the poverty stricken in the Third World Countries. All those poor would be ecstatic to be able to live on the wages of the poor over in this country AND living in this country. When I worked in the hotel industry, I was very impressed with how recent immigrants would work so hard doing even two minimum wage jobs, be living in crowded apartments, sending money back to their old country to their relatives AND saving for a better life. I saw many of these people eventually buy real estate to live in or start their own business like a corner store or restaurant. They were willing to make real sacrifices to get ahead. They weren't on Section 8 housing or food stamps either. They even had young kids. And what they seemed to have going for them was a family team effort to make everything work.
And what I see wrong with the majority of the chronic poor is that they have issues with needing instant gratification. They have no self discipline. In high school, they rush to be adults and have sex. They have teenage pregnancies, or marry early and don't plan their pregnancies. Of course if they want to have kids, they should, but why can't they wait until they have the financial security to do so? Put off having kids for a few years and instead go to school or work on a real career that will pay enough to live a good life on. And they refuse to save their money, but instead buy electronic or designer clothing frivolities on credit. The poorest people seem to have Christmases with the most gifts to each other. They choose short term gratification over using some self discipline for a later greater return. And if they weren't maxxed out on their credit cards, instead had savings accounts, come together as a family and they would be able to buy a house to fix up at a lower interest rate.
Other ways to save money for everyone is if people put a little effort into learning how the things in their life work, like their cars. So many people these days are too lazy to check the fluids in their car and the air pressure in their tires, let alone know how their car works. So they are either trapped into a cycle of buying new cars every three years or spending big bucks with the dealership mechanics. While still in high school, my boyfriend taught himself how to rebuild the transmission on his old Cadillac. And he made it stronger by adding extra clutch packs! Our daily driven cars are Hondas from the 92-95 period. They have between 180k and 380k miles on them. Only the New England winter salt on the roads is going to make my cars rust away before I am done with them. But our cars are more reliable than the newer cars that our friends drive. Maybe they aren't shiny on the outside, but it's really nice not having a car payment or the higher car insurance that goes with it. Any jewelry or clothing I want, I buy used off of eBay or thrift shop.
As to a living wage, who says that everyone has a right to own a 52" plasma screen tv or a new luxury car? How are purchases like that necessary or important? And most people indulge in the convenience of eating out when it would be much cheaper to cook at home. I also think that there is a lot of waste in all those daily cups of Starbucks type coffee drinks.
Last edited by miu; 01-06-2009 at 09:18 AM..
Reason: Spelling.
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