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Anyway, I find this entire discussion disturbing. If CEO's can demand these kinds of salary in the market then they should get them. After, all they have invested more in there educations and their experience allows them to demand hire salaries. What do you want the government setting CEO salaries?
(I am often falsely accused of trolling, so for the record, the above statement is a proper example of a Catto Troll™)
Greed is part of a risk reward system we have and have taken to the extreme. Healthy competition is a great thing but we in America go beyond competition and worship money and possession and by in large it is how we measure other people. Not by their acts, morality, or even contribution to a community of people but by the sheer content of their garages and living rooms. People might as well be raised in warm mason jars instead of their mothers wombs (a womb with a view to boot) and placed in front of a sham-wow infomercial all day with a set of headphones repeating... spend, spend, spend.
Like a parasite that gets too greedy and sucks too much blood, the host will die and the parasite will die along with it. Meanwhile there is some guy named Nishimatsu who wants his children or grandchildren to work where he does because apparently to them, there is a relationship between company and worker that is more lasting than a fiscal quarter.
Another example of this kind of long term thinking and vision that comes to mind are the English ship builders from the 15th through 18th centuries. They would plant groves of oak trees in a grid so many feet apart so that when the oaks were mature, their branches would have enough curves and bends to be adequate for the knees in a ships hull. Each generation planting these kinds of groves knowing that they would not mature for 250 years. So why does a person go through this effort for something that he himself will never benefit from?
I suppose you could equate todays American business model with those old ship builders with one distinction, while we slash and burn the forest in a rush to build as many ships today as possible, no one is planting groves for 250 years from now.
Of course check out my new 60" LCD super HDTV with a holly double pumper and a 700 watt remote that serves drinks and opens the garage door AND remotely starts the car so I don't have to turn that key again... ugh, so much hassle. I was going to wait till next year as the new model has a built in MP3 player, toothpick and floss kit, but since I am already at the limit of my 19th credit card and the payments on that sucker are almost as much as my car, I figured I'd wait until a little.
I agree with this post 100%.
The parasite part I bolded is what is happening right now, as we are writing this, on many levels.
__________________
The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it. ~Henry David Thoreau
Anyway, I find this entire discussion disturbing. If CEO's can demand these kinds of salary in the market then they should get them. After, all they have invested more in there educations and their experience allows them to demand hire salaries. What do you want the government setting CEO salaries?
(I am often falsely accused of trolling, so for the record, the above statement is a proper example of a Catto Trollâ„¢)
Not at all, but if CEO's show up on the floor of Congress, on their knees begging for money to stay solvent while their CEO's are getting 6,7,8 figure salaries, then simply say NO.
If we are to allow the market to set salaries or determine the efficiency of a company, then the market said they failed to operate properly and should die but we won't let them. So are you suggesting it is ok the let the market determine one thing but if it fails to bail out the failures with reward? Either we have a free market system or we do not, since it is clear we do not have one now, with all the bail outs, then yes the government should set a standard for beggers.
Japanese workers probably work harder than most Americans too.
Not exactly, they work "smarter". They also have a different view of the business paradigm in general. That doesn't include the often touted "pyramid-scheme" here in the United States. You know, too many chiefs who couldn't lead a team of one out of a wet paper bag and not enough indians worthy of any input...
In these regards, i highly admire their (Asian/Japanese) overall humility when applied to the business sector.
Speaking of the "SMART" program of the asian auto industries. I was told that Henry Ford originally implied the idea for his assembly line and was lost in translation over the years until the Asian auto manufacturers rediscovered and applied it.
Greed is part of a risk reward system we have and have taken to the extreme. Healthy competition is a great thing but we in America go beyond competition and worship money and possession and by in large it is how we measure other people. Not by their acts, morality, or even contribution to a community of people but by the sheer content of their garages and living rooms. People might as well be raised in warm mason jars instead of their mothers wombs (a womb with a view to boot) and placed in front of a sham-wow infomercial all day with a set of headphones repeating... spend, spend, spend.
Like a parasite that gets too greedy and sucks too much blood, the host will die and the parasite will die along with it. Meanwhile there is some guy named Nishimatsu who wants his children or grandchildren to work where he does because apparently to them, there is a relationship between company and worker that is more lasting than a fiscal quarter.
Another example of this kind of long term thinking and vision that comes to mind are the English ship builders from the 15th through 18th centuries. They would plant groves of oak trees in a grid so many feet apart so that when the oaks were mature, their branches would have enough curves and bends to be adequate for the knees in a ships hull. Each generation planting these kinds of groves knowing that they would not mature for 250 years. So why does a person go through this effort for something that he himself will never benefit from?
I suppose you could equate todays American business model with those old ship builders with one distinction, while we slash and burn the forest in a rush to build as many ships today as possible, no one is planting groves for 250 years from now.
Of course check out my new 60" LCD super HDTV with a holly double pumper and a 700 watt remote that serves drinks and opens the garage door AND remotely starts the car so I don't have to turn that key again... ugh, so much hassle. I was going to wait till next year as the new model has a built in MP3 player, toothpick and floss kit, but since I am already at the limit of my 19th credit card and the payments on that sucker are almost as much as my car, I figured I'd wait until a little.
What do you mean 'we'? Have you got a mouse in your pocket? Not all Americans live like that. Spare me the self righteousness.
Last edited by andreabeth; 01-12-2009 at 12:01 PM..
Greed is part of a risk reward system we have and have taken to the extreme. Healthy competition is a great thing but we in America go beyond competition and worship money and possession and by in large it is how we measure other people. Not by their acts, morality, or even contribution to a community of people but by the sheer content of their garages and living rooms. People might as well be raised in warm mason jars instead of their mothers wombs (a womb with a view to boot) and placed in front of a sham-wow infomercial all day with a set of headphones repeating... spend, spend, spend.
Like a parasite that gets too greedy and sucks too much blood, the host will die and the parasite will die along with it. Meanwhile there is some guy named Nishimatsu who wants his children or grandchildren to work where he does because apparently to them, there is a relationship between company and worker that is more lasting than a fiscal quarter.
Another example of this kind of long term thinking and vision that comes to mind are the English ship builders from the 15th through 18th centuries. They would plant groves of oak trees in a grid so many feet apart so that when the oaks were mature, their branches would have enough curves and bends to be adequate for the knees in a ships hull. Each generation planting these kinds of groves knowing that they would not mature for 250 years. So why does a person go through this effort for something that he himself will never benefit from?
I suppose you could equate todays American business model with those old ship builders with one distinction, while we slash and burn the forest in a rush to build as many ships today as possible, no one is planting groves for 250 years from now.
Of course check out my new 60" LCD super HDTV with a holly double pumper and a 700 watt remote that serves drinks and opens the garage door AND remotely starts the car so I don't have to turn that key again... ugh, so much hassle. I was going to wait till next year as the new model has a built in MP3 player, toothpick and floss kit, but since I am already at the limit of my 19th credit card and the payments on that sucker are almost as much as my car, I figured I'd wait until a little.
Even as a hard Right-Winger I agree with you...
But the simple truth of the matter is America exists for only two reasons:
-To make money
-To be free to live our lives as we see fit
If you take these two things away, there is really no reason to be here. Call what I'm about to say bigotry/racism/whatever, but in essance America is a land of thousands of skin tones/languages/cultures/religons/philosphies/values that in any other place in the world would fall apart. America's claim to fame is that anyone from anywhere could come here and make it big or at least be free...
We are not and will never be like Japan, France, Sweden, India, etc. We do not have thousands of years of shared values, language, philosphie, culture, history, etc, like they do. Like it or not, America will never have the same amount of inter-personal cohesion as a place like say Tokyo does....
I've met alot of Japanese people and stories like the above are certainly more common over there than they are over here. But the dark side of that is that Japan holds racial/ethnic/cultural/moral/lingustic purity in high regard. In this age of "Multiculturalism" and the decline of Christain values, we will never have the same outlook as they do, for better or worse....
Half of my family came here in Chains. The other in steerage. Both are united in the idea that we are free to be who we want to be and as successful as we are willing to work. Increasing nanny-stateism, welfare, racism, entitlement attitudes, lack of regard for any sense of moral and intellectual discovery and general selfishness have created what we see today. We've spent the last 50 years teaching the youth that "Right and Wrong is relative", so is anyone really shocked that this is the result?
But the simple truth of the matter is America exists for only two reasons:
-To make money
-To be free to live our lives as we see fit
If you take these two things away, there is really no reason to be here. Call what I'm about to say bigotry/racism/whatever, but in essance America is a land of thousands of skin tones/languages/cultures/religons/philosphies/values that in any other place in the world would fall apart. America's claim to fame is that anyone from anywhere could come here and make it big or at least be free...
We are not and will never be like Japan, France, Sweden, India, etc. We do not have thousands of years of shared values, language, philosphie, culture, history, etc, like they do. Like it or not, America will never have the same amount of inter-personal cohesion as a place like say Tokyo does....
I've met alot of Japanese people and stories like the above are certainly more common over there than they are over here. But the dark side of that is that Japan holds racial/ethnic/cultural/moral/lingustic purity in high regard. In this age of "Multiculturalism" and the decline of Christain values, we will never have the same outlook as they do, for better or worse....
Half of my family came here in Chains. The other in steerage. Both are united in the idea that we are free to be who we want to be and as successful as we are willing to work. Increasing nanny-stateism, welfare, racism, entitlement attitudes, lack of regard for any sense of moral and intellectual discovery and general selfishness have created what we see today. We've spent the last 50 years teaching the youth that "Right and Wrong is relative", so is anyone really shocked that this is the result?
I will agree with half of this, that America is at least in part founded upon personal freedom and liberty. As to we exist to make money as the other part of the "sole" reason we exist, I disagree. Making money and accumulating wealth should be a part of the process, not the end game.
As someone mentioned in another thread (I think on American empire) that our form of government and the basis of our society exist for a greater purpose, such as the promotion of the former, freedom and liberty of the individual. I do often look to the past for clues as to what the future may hold, and as I look back to the future of Rome or Greece, Persia or even the ancient Egyptians and Chinese, these people left behind a variety of contributions to humanity. What will be our legacy 200, 500, 1000 years from now, that we were an empire like the Ferengi on Star Trek, motivated by little more than profit and furthering all technological achievements in pursuit of even more profit? Thanks, but no thanks, I think America is better than that, or at least our system is.
You are right that we don't have those long traditional lines of societal cohesion and example to turn to, so we have a clean slate and are free to choose what direction we will go and what mark we will leave on the world.
Capitalism has done wondrous things to progress our society, it inspires invention, creativity, and hope that even the lowest of the low can make it to a prosperous life. However, we can also take this too far and to the extent where it become counter productive and more resembles a banana republic than the seat of the world's great Democratic experiment.
I have a family member that went to work in a steel mill the day he got out of highschool. Like his father before him, he toiled in the mill because he believed that one day, like his father, he would get a pension, provide a good living for his family, and live the American dream. He was loyal to his company, but his company wasn't loyal to him. After more than 30 years, he arrives at work one day to find that 70% of his pension has vanished and he is faced with a choice, take early retirement with 30%, or continue working at reduced pay and benefits. He chose the latter, no longer out of loyalty, but out of necessity. Corporate America CEO's have no such loyalties as they are multinational companies who could care less if America fell on her face and ended up eating dirt. They have bases in China, India, and South America, life goes on and caviar is being served in the Cayman's. If the America CEO was held to the same standard as a simple mill worker, much of our problems would cure themselves.
As to the decline of Christian "values", yeah, who would have thought the day would arrive when so many Christians would side with the money changers.
I will agree with half of this, that America is at least in part founded upon personal freedom and liberty. As to we exist to make money as the other part of the "sole" reason we exist, I disagree. Making money and accumulating wealth should be a part of the process, not the end game.
As someone mentioned in another thread (I think on American empire) that our form of government and the basis of our society exist for a greater purpose, such as the promotion of the former, freedom and liberty of the individual. I do often look to the past for clues as to what the future may hold, and as I look back to the future of Rome or Greece, Persia or even the ancient Egyptians and Chinese, these people left behind a variety of contributions to humanity. What will be our legacy 200, 500, 1000 years from now, that we were an empire like the Ferengi on Star Trek, motivated by little more than profit and furthering all technological achievements in pursuit of even more profit? Thanks, but no thanks, I think America is better than that, or at least our system is.
You are right that we don't have those long traditional lines of societal cohesion and example to turn to, so we have a clean slate and are free to choose what direction we will go and what mark we will leave on the world.
Capitalism has done wondrous things to progress our society, it inspires invention, creativity, and hope that even the lowest of the low can make it to a prosperous life. However, we can also take this too far and to the extent where it become counter productive and more resembles a banana republic than the seat of the world's great Democratic experiment.
I have a family member that went to work in a steel mill the day he got out of highschool. Like his father before him, he toiled in the mill because he believed that one day, like his father, he would get a pension, provide a good living for his family, and live the American dream. He was loyal to his company, but his company wasn't loyal to him. After more than 30 years, he arrives at work one day to find that 70% of his pension has vanished and he is faced with a choice, take early retirement with 30%, or continue working at reduced pay and benefits. He chose the latter, no longer out of loyalty, but out of necessity. Corporate America CEO's have no such loyalties as they are multinational companies who could care less if America fell on her face and ended up eating dirt. They have bases in China, India, and South America, life goes on and caviar is being served in the Cayman's. If the America CEO was held to the same standard as a simple mill worker, much of our problems would cure themselves.
As to the decline of Christian "values", yeah, who would have thought the day would arrive when so many Christians would side with the money changers.
I agree that we have lost our way as a capitalist society, but economics is only half the issue.
Bush got us into an economic mess by bascially promoting corporate socialism. I agree that alot of the Lassie-fair talk from the right is striaght fraud, since we haven't been capitalist since the 30s and the globalist leadership don't plan on going back. They're looking out for their boys and couldn't care less what happens to us...
But the other side is the social "If it feels good, do it" mentality that's been engraned in us since the 60s. First by saying any sense of morality is "Judgemental" and that we should never demand people act properly. Everyone now in days feels they're owed something, from the CEO right down to the welfare mother. We've become a bunch of spoiled brats whining about how our lives are "Unfair" and how we need "More". Look at the immigration forum and the filth that passes for debate. Middle-aged white people blaming Mexicans for the audacity to come here and work harder than them...Or the constant "Woe is Me" from the Al Shaprton/Louis Fhakarhan set. And the screaming from the left about how they're owed my tax money becuase I didn't blow my paycheck on green and lotto and they couldn't help themselves...
More government cheese, more bailouts, more money, more sex, more outsourcing, more more more. It's never enough for most people.
Humility and taking responsibility guide Japanese executives.
/quote]
There is exactly the opposite view here where they think they are royalty. I have seen CEOs with private elevators to their penthouse office, and private helicopter pads. They dont want to deal with the 'common folk'.
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