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i say do what ever it takes to protect our US citizens and our cities. Do we want another 911?
It's not just about another 9/11. It's about who we are as a country. Do we want to be a country that endorses torture? Once you start saying that torture is okay in this situation or that situation, you've crossed the line. Is it a line we, as a country, want to cross?
It's not just about another 9/11. It's about who we are as a country. Do we want to be a country that endorses torture? Once you start saying that torture is okay in this situation or that situation, you've crossed the line. Is it a line we, as a country, want to cross?
I don't like torture and really don't think its that valuable of a tool. However, I don't think waterboarding is torture in the terms people are talking about torture. I also don't think the use of waterboarding should be totally done away with.
Those that are so anti-waterboarding need to explain how it is we are to gain important information in a quick and urgent manner.
It's not just about another 9/11. It's about who we are as a country. Do we want to be a country that endorses torture? Once you start saying that torture is okay in this situation or that situation, you've crossed the line. Is it a line we, as a country, want to cross?
If it was your family that was kidnapped and being threatened with death what would you authorize to be done if you had someone who had the info to find them? Or another example, if there was a nuclear bomb planted in NYC and we had a couple of the people that were in the group that planted it and they won't talk what should we do? Do we waterboard them and make 'em uncomfortable for a while if we're pretty sure they have the info we need? Or, do we just take the hit because we refuse to use the tools that they'd use on us?
Hard questions that test exactly what you believe and how dedicated you are. Are you willing to give up your life and the lives of others based on some ideals?
If it was your family that was kidnapped and being threatened with death what would you authorize to be done if you had someone who had the info to find them?
Sorry, but I would not authorize torture. And this is a strawman argument. We aren't waterboarding someone 183 times to obtain a specific location, we are fishing for information, aren't we? The terrorists don't have an organization like a pyramid, they are organized like beehives. The amount of information, even from prominent terrorists, is limited because the cells operate so independently.
Now if Iran says it is going to waterboard Roxana Saberi 183 times, what will be the response from pro-torture types? That it is ok? Iran could even make the argument that they gave Roxana Saberi a trial and that she was convicted, something that Zubaydah was never offered.
So, will all the pro-torture folks stand behind Iranian President, Ahmadinejad if he decides to water board this journalist?
I don't care who they are, we shouldn't be doing it. And I am an old soldier (as are and were many of my family members), who served proudly, so it is possible to be a soldier/military supporter and still disagree with this technique. Many high-ranking ex-military brass seem to agree with me. Funnily enough, I haven't heard any come out and say they agree with it.
But all these armchair generals on the internet, they KNOW better (even though the US has a history of punishing US soldiers for boarding people, as recently as Vietnam).
I respect your service to the country, but you are trying to equate soldiers to war criminals.
We have been fighting standing armies in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the war with Saddam Husein's Iraq. You are talking about soldiers in an army of the country we are at war with, or the people of that country taking up arms to defend their country. We are not at war with or invading the countries Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan etc... and yet, we are fighting terrorists from these countries, and so are our allies.
A terrorist is not a POW, he is a hate filled, religious fanatic, war profiteer and international war criminal, who murder innocent civilians for some holy war against anyone who disagrees with their version of religion, or other vague reasons of religion and hatred.
I don't like torture and really don't think its that valuable of a tool. However, I don't think waterboarding is torture in the terms people are talking about torture. I also don't think the use of waterboarding should be totally done away with.
Those that are so anti-waterboarding need to explain how it is we are to gain important information in a quick and urgent manner.
How quickly and urgently?
Was the information obtained from KSM after the 183rd waterboarding more valuable and comprehensive than the information after the 182nd time? 183 times, that doesn't seem to be a quick and efficient path to obtaining information.
We've been told that information that KSM provided us helped to foil some terrorist plots, at least one specifically targeted at LA. We've also been told that he provided information that was false and which wasted our time and resources. At a time when such waste can be very costly.
When you torture someone, how do you verify that the information is good? Either you have other sources for that information, in which case the torture seems superfluous, or you have to expend valuable time and resources on the assumption that the information is true, and that sort of takes away from the quickly and urgently scenario. Moreover, if you spend years and multiple resources on information that turns out to be false, you have to factor in more than the cost of the time and resources. You have to consider how you might have spent the time and resources following up on valid information.
Sorry, but I would not authorize torture. And this is a strawman argument. We aren't waterboarding someone 183 times to obtain a specific location, we are fishing for information, aren't we? The terrorists don't have an organization like a pyramid, they are organized like beehives. The amount of information, even from prominent terrorists, is limited because the cells operate so independently.
Actually it's not a strawman argument, it's a scenerio that could actually occur depending on where you live or travel. As for the 183 times, as I've said in another post prove that happened 183 times... According to the NY Times it was 266 times and the government said 3.
It seems that your argument about limited info is false as they did get info that stopped attacks...
Laughable that there is such a pathological obsession to curry the favor of the global community. The world still comes to our shores for fun and profit. Even the teen 'pirate' always dreamed of coming to the USA.
Be real, the global community doesn't care what we do as long as they make a profit through business deals. They fold like a paper bag. Getting in bed with the devil is a way of life for these bystanders of the world community.
No concern that terorists were waterboarded. Less concern what any other counrty thinks.
I am more concerned about the morality of shipping jobs to countries whose cultural and political practices result in the death of their own citizens.
Are you saying that if Germany, France or Switzerland captures one of our guys they will be abused and tortured as retaliation for 'current' US interrogation practices?
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Or another example, if there was a nuclear bomb planted in NYC and we had a couple of the people that were in the group that planted it and they won't talk what should we do? Do we waterboard them and make 'em uncomfortable for a while if we're pretty sure they have the info we need? Or, do we just take the hit because we refuse to use the tools that they'd use on us?
overzealous compensation
