Conservatives, what do you think should be done to fix the healthcare problem? (employment, wage)

[Zhang Fei]

Originally Posted by ozzie679

Can you imagine how expensive insurance premiums would be without Medicare Medicare is the dumping ground for the elderly and sick.
Private insurance companies need Medicare to be profitable at the current rates.

I think you're right. If hospitals were honest about claims, the very existence of Medicare (because of its uneconomically-low reimbursement rates) would be a tax on other patients. But because Medicare does little or no screening of claims (which is why the administrative expense is so low), it helps keep marginal hospitals in business. I suspect the low reimbursement rates are more than compensated for by fraudulent claims for procedures that are never performed and drugs and equipment that are never handed out.

If Medicare were truly a loss-maker, hospitals simply stop accepting Medicare patients. The medical practices that don't accept Medicare are probably the ones that don't want to finagle (i.e. fraudulently pad) their claims to make Medicare patients profitable. The reason some hospitals have been folding in the past few years is because of government investigations into their Medicare claims - if their profitability is based on Medicare patients, they simply cannot survive without padding their bills with procedures that haven't been carried out, because of unrealistically low Medicare rates. Because of this increased government scrutiny (and the resulting felony convictions), fewer and fewer medical practices are accepting Medicare patients. Some are simply going out of business - they can't live with Medicare, and they can't live without it.

[nicet4]

Originally Posted by las vegas drunk

I lean mostly to the left liberal side, but I am not so sure of the current bill that is going through the Senate. It looks like everyone was paid off to get what they want for their own state just to pass it. There is no doubt we need to reform the current system, so what would be your plan? I am currently one of the people who work full time, but my employer offers no insurance, and I cannot afford private insurance. Still, I feel this bill is flawed, so I thought I would ask the other side for their viewpoint.

You can't afford it?

So?

So what if you can't afford it, what's it to me? What kind of country have we become to have any citizen feel they are entitled to anything beyond what their hard work and the guarantees in the constitution give?

You got the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness but not the property of others.

What's your hobby, photography perhaps? I can't afford that nice Nikon camera you got so to make everything "fair" shouldn't you give me tax money so I can buy one too since I can't afford it on my own?

As far as affording it I can't afford mine either but somehow I pay the bill every month and you know how I do that? I do it by cutting unnecessary things such as the internet connection you are obviously paying for to post here. If it was really that important to you you wouldn't be posting here but paying your own bills not waiting for the taxpayer to pay it for you.

Got a cell phone? Exactly.

Car? Yeah, got one of those too.

How about an ipod or something equally "gotta have it" instead of paying for your own health insurance?

This country doesn't know what hard times and poverty is by the looks of all the downtrodden poor running around with blackberries and $300 a month phone bills.

Now to your original question on how I would solve the problem which isn't health care but affordability. We got the best health care in the world so the problem isn't with the care it is the affordability.

1. Tort reform. Far to much medicine is preventive medicine. Get the trial lawyers the heck out of medicine but with the trail lawyers being the biggest single donar to the democratic party that won't be happening.

2. Once a year have open enrollment so those with pre-existing conditions can obtain a policy for the same price anyone else pays.

3. Make sure copays are high enough so idiots don't abuse the system to death. Can't afford it? Get a second job.

[Zhang Fei]

Originally Posted by shorebaby

Only if they legislate that government cannot mandate pricing, this mandate frequently causes providers to operate at a loss.

Oh - I don't think the government should set prices; that's the job of the medical providers, in response to market signals. What the government should do is prevent price discrimination - it should dictate that whatever price a medical provider decides to charge for a given procedure, it should charge to all customers, whether the customer is Medicaid, Medicare, an insurance company, or Joe Schmoe, who's paying cash.

[las vegas drunk]

Originally Posted by nicet4

You can't afford it?

So?

So what if you can't afford it, what's it to me? What kind of country have we become to have any citizen feel they are entitled to anything beyond what their hard work and the guarantees in the constitution give?

You got the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness but not the property of others.

What's your hobby, photography perhaps? I can't afford that nice Nikon camera you got so to make everything "fair" shouldn't you give me tax money so I can buy one too since I can't afford it on my own?

As far as affording it I can't afford mine either but somehow I pay the bill every month and you know how I do that? I do it by cutting unnecessary things such as the internet connection you are obviously paying for to post here. If it was really that important to you you wouldn't be posting here but paying your own bills not waiting for the taxpayer to pay it for you.

Got a cell phone? Exactly.

Car? Yeah, got one of those too.

How about an ipod or something equally "gotta have it" instead of paying for your own health insurance?

This country doesn't know what hard times and poverty is by the looks of all the downtrodden poor running around with blackberries and $300 a month phone bills.

Now to your original question on how I would solve the problem which isn't health care but affordability. We got the best health care in the world so the problem isn't with the care it is the affordability.

1. Tort reform. Far to much medicine is preventive medicine. Get the trial lawyers the heck out of medicine but with the trail lawyers being the biggest single donar to the democratic party that won't be happening.

2. Once a year have open enrollment so those with pre-existing conditions can obtain a policy for the same price anyone else pays.

3. Make sure copays are high enough so idiots don't abuse the system to death. Can't afford it? Get a second job.

You are very rude. I do not have a cell phone, and I have internet because the room I rent out of someones condo includes it. I drive a very beat up old car that barely runs. Where did you get all this from?

[Zhang Fei]

Originally Posted by las vegas drunk

You are very rude. I do not have a cell phone, and I have internet because the room I rent out of someones condo includes it. I drive a very beat up old car that barely runs. Where did you get all this from?

Your instincts are not completely off. I think the current health care system really sticks it to the little guy who isn't employed by a large corporation or covered by government insurance. Between (1) the discrimination represented by group insurance rates, (2) higher prices charged to the individual for medical procedures, (3) discriminatory tax preferences in favor of employer-provided health insurance and (4) Cadillac-grade minimum state requirements for health insurance plans, the little guy's burden is a heavy one indeed. Bush tried to tackle (3) and (4) but could not get it past Democratic filibusters and that was the end of it.

[shorebaby]

Originally Posted by Zhang Fei

Your instincts are not completely off. I think the current health care system really sticks it to the little guy who isn't employed by a large corporation or covered by government insurance. Between (1) the discrimination represented by group insurance rates, (2) higher prices charged to the individual for medical procedures, (3) discriminatory tax preferences in favor of employer-provided health insurance and (4) Cadillac-grade minimum state requirements for health insurance plans, the little guy's burden is a heavy one indeed. Bush tried to tackle (3) and (4) but could not get it past Democratic filibusters and that was the end of it.

The Republican plan allowed for coops which allowed individuals to band together and be treated like a large company when buying insurance. A big plus for the little guy.

[JeffersG]

Originally Posted by shorebaby

The Republican plan allowed for coops which allowed individuals to band together and be treated like a large company when buying insurance. A big plus for the little guy.

And this would be the smart and pragmatic way to go about it, I think.

I enjoy reading your opinions, by the way.

[markg91359]

You wrote:

You can't afford it?

So?

My reply is: I am ashamed to live in the same country with people like you. You live closer to the edge than you probably realize. A heart attack? Cancer? Get in a serious accident? You'll probably really fast even if you do have good health insurance that you can't even afford the deductibles.

What do you suggest that people with pre-existing health conditions do? Many are not eligible for either medicare or medicaid. Should they just die because no one will write health insurance for them? Guess what? There are lots of people who were the victims of simply getting bad genes when they were born. But for heavens sakes, let's not take away any of your freedom ok?


You wrote:


So what if you can't afford it, what's it to me? What kind of country have we become to have any citizen feel they are entitled to anything beyond what their hard work and the guarantees in the constitution give?

My reply is:

Our government made a decision 70 years ago to provide social security to the elderly. Forty-five years ago, we added to that guarantee by providing a single payer health insurance system for all people over 65. This is in accord with a social safety net provided by Australia, Canada, the European Countries, Japan, New Zealand, and even Taiwan. In other words, the rest of the modern world believes this is appropriate policy. What you miss is not only is this what people want and need its not prohibited by the Constitution. That's the question--not whether it is guaranteed, but whether its prohibited. We don't take the poor and elderly in this country and dump them in the ocean to drown. We make some effort to take care of them. That's called "humanity and decency". Although, you may never had heard either word before. Its a good time to think about both since Christmas comes in 3 days.

You wrote:

You got the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness but not the property of others.

My reply is:

Pick up your copy of the Constitution. It doesn't use that phrase specifically. That's in the Declaration of Independence. Although it becomes increasingly clear to me posting here that no one bothers to read either document these days. The Constitution says that one cannot have "life, liberty, or property" taken without the due process of law. We tax people for all kinds of things in this country. Taxation is a legislative question, not a judicial one. This will be true, if as I predict, Congress passes the health insurance plan.

You wrote:

What's your hobby, photography perhaps? I can't afford that nice Nikon camera you got so to make everything "fair" shouldn't you give me tax money so I can buy one too since I can't afford it on my own?

My reply is:

I'm sorry there is no comparing the love for a new camera with the need for medical care. Everyone can live without a new Nikon. The same is not true for medical care. Do you think the ambulance company should charge everyone before it transports them? This seems to be the logical extension of your arguments. I guess if you are unconscious you are just out of luck, huh? Let's bill those people before they get in the ambulance.

You wrote:

As far as affording it I can't afford mine either but somehow I pay the bill every month and you know how I do that? I do it by cutting unnecessary things such as the internet connection you are obviously paying for to post here. If it was really that important to you you wouldn't be posting here but paying your own bills not waiting for the taxpayer to pay it for you.

My reply is:

So all political agitation shouldn't occur because we should be out working and earning instead huh? Ha ha ha ha.

You wrote:

How about an ipod or something equally "gotta have it" instead of paying for your own health insurance?

My reply is:

Same point. There is no comparison between the need for an IPOD and medical care. Sometimes when that old appendix ruptures "you gotta have" that operation to fix it. No one has to have an IPOD. I'm surprised you would even make this argument. Its just dumb.

You wrote:

This country doesn't know what hard times and poverty is by the looks of all the downtrodden poor running around with blackberries and $300 a month phone bills.

My reply is

That IPOD is dirt cheap compared to a $150,000 bill for bypass surgery. Or, the $200,000 necessary for breast cancer treatment. I could easily see how one could do without IPODS, blackberries, flat screen tvs and cars and still come up short when its time to pay those mammoth medical bills.

You wrote:


1. Tort reform. Far to much medicine is preventive medicine. Get the trial lawyers the heck out of medicine but with the trail lawyers being the biggest single donar to the democratic party that won't be happening.

My reply is:

Its a drop in the bucket. The director of the Congressional Budget Office says if we adopt all tort reforms proposed we'd save about 1/2 of one percent of all health care costs. You wouldn't even see the difference. (these costs increase at the rate of about 8% a year)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/09/AR200910090427

You also claimed our medical care was the "best in world". Not true, according to a study by the World Health Organization. American medical care is ranked 37 out of over 150 nations. By the way all the nations with what you would call "socialized medicine" ranked above us.

WHO | World Health Organization Assesses the World's Health Systems


You wrote:

2. Once a year have open enrollment so those with pre-existing conditions can obtain a policy for the same price anyone else pays.

My reply is:

What a damn shame you have to kick into an insurance plan that pays for other people, tsk tsk. I hope you and your family never get sick. Maybe you 'll be on the receiving end sometime. Than I bet we'll hear nothing, but silence out of you.

You wrote:

3. Make sure copays are high enough so idiots don't abuse the system to death. Can't afford it? Get a second job.

My reply is:

So, your solution is for someone who needs that bypass operation to go get a second job. Gotcha. Bet you spent alot of time thinking that one through, duh.

Honestly, why don't people like you go live on a desert island somewhere and leave the rest of us alone. We don't need your kind. Better suck it up. A wise old owl is telling this health insurance reform bill is going through.

[kovert]

Originally Posted by las vegas drunk

I lean mostly to the left liberal side, but I am not so sure of the current bill that is going through the Senate. It looks like everyone was paid off to get what they want for their own state just to pass it. There is no doubt we need to reform the current system, so what would be your plan? I am currently one of the people who work full time, but my employer offers no insurance, and I cannot afford private insurance. Still, I feel this bill is flawed, so I thought I would ask the other side for their viewpoint.

This bill especially the Senate version is basically a health industry bailout, particularly private citizens dollars bailing out of their wallets to the health care industry's pocket. We are FORCED to buy a health care plan whether we want to or not thus increasing the customer base for the industry. We face a penalty if we don't thus Uncle Sam milking us a little more, then to top it off OUR tax dollars are served up to the industry on a platter in the form of subsidies. These bills are just awful.

Now there are examples and actions the government could take to make the reform workable.

Create a health care agency along the lines of the post office. Our postal system is a government agency and it is fast and efficient and may have little need for tax payer dollars. It is also one of the largest employers in the nation with an obligation to serve all Americans for the same price and quality. There is still enough room for private competition via UPS and FedEx. Why can't a government agency for health care be created?

The creation of private albeit regulated companies similarly to utility companies in certain regions are another way to go. They are in effect monopolies but the regulations keep the prices and fees at decent levels.

Lastly a more capitalistic approach would be to enact antitrust laws and break up the massive health care corporations. Laws should be set up to ensure that there are many competing companies for consumers to choose from. The competing companies would have to lower prices and provide more services and be more innovative and effective in their delivery of such services to stay in the game against their rivals.

Unfortunately, I hear little of any of the three being put on the table. Both the Dems and the GOP have sold us all down the river. I'm not sure if the Dems seriously want to win the 2010 elections or not?

[that1guy]

Originally Posted by kovert

This bill especially the Senate version is basically a health industry bailout, particularly private citizens dollars bailing out of their wallets to the health care industry's pocket. We are FORCED to buy a health care plan whether we want to or not thus increasing the customer base for the industry. We face a penalty if we don't thus Uncle Sam milking us a little more, then to top it off OUR tax dollars are served up to the industry on a platter in the form of subsidies. These bills are just awful.

Now there are examples and actions the government could take to make the reform workable.

Create a health care agency along the lines of the post office. Our postal system is a government agency and it is fast and efficient and may have little need for tax payer dollars. It is also one of the largest employers in the nation with an obligation to serve all Americans for the same price and quality. There is still enough room for private competition via UPS and FedEx. Why can't a government agency for health care be created?

The creation of private albeit regulated companies similarly to utility companies in certain regions are another way to go. They are in effect monopolies but the regulations keep the prices and fees at decent levels.

Lastly a more capitalistic approach would be to enact antitrust laws and break up the massive health care corporations. Laws should be set up to ensure that there are many competing companies for consumers to choose from. The competing companies would have to lower prices and provide more services and be more innovative and effective in their delivery of such services to stay in the game against their rivals.

Unfortunately, I hear little of any of the three being put on the table. Both the Dems and the GOP have sold us all down the river. I'm not sure if the Dems seriously want to win the 2010 elections or not?

Are there provisions to have price caps? I don't believe so...which in turn will make your point of the senate bill being more akin to a bailout than reform with the needs of the populace in mind.