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So in your mind premeditated acts of violence = terrorist?Rememer that guy who shot up all those people in a restaurant in Lubbock (I think) Texas? Was he a terrorist IYO?
Did the Luby's killer have a grudge against cafeteria chains? Did he type a 6 page essay specifically detailing his dislike toward cafeteria chains? Did he make this essay available for everyone to read after he committed his acts stating he was going to send a message to cafeteria chains?
The difference is Hasan like Stack were both motivated by a specific ideology and saw their victims as a threat that had to be hurt in some manner. Their acts were not random.
You would have a point if this guy just randomly ran his car into a McDonalds killing people because his wife left him the day before. Stack clearly spent years forming these ideas. Have you had a chance to read his essay? It's truly disturbing but it also shows you this guy has felt this way for a long time. This is a not person who suffered from a bout of depression and just went off. Here is the link again, I think you will change your mind after you read it. There is a link to a PDF in the article
His intentions are irrelevant.
He flew into a building knowing that he would kill people.
I'm sure the families of those dead don't really care of his motivation.
Why not just pay your taxes? Gee, that's a novel idea.
Would you assign the same "so sad, too bad" sympathies for either the 9/11 terrorists or Timothy McVeigh?
The Austin guy knowingly killed people.
If I had a gripe with your child, are you saying that it would be okay if I bombed everyone in your neighborhood?
What's the difference? The end result is the same.
I can't believe that you're justifying this. Second thought, yes, I can believe it.
And the people he killed and their families don't matter? There's also going to be a big cost to fix the building.
Perhaps because he committed a terroristic attack on the US government and it's employees. That would pretty well define it for me.
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As an aside, don't teabaggers get into frenzy states like this? Isn't that the whole issue? Is there a connection?
Of course the people he killed and their families matter! Victims' families in all murders matter enormously. No one said they didn't matter. We were talking about the clear fact that the man was very mentally illl by the time he did the things he did. The definition of "terrorist" and "terrorism" is still not clearly defined.....although there does seem to be a consistency in the definitions out there that a terrorist is trying to use coercion/fear to attain a political goal. What was the political goal of the Texas guy? What kind of political change did he expect to achieve by killing himself and others in that building? It was a crime, IMO. It was murder. He wanted to kill himself and take other people (probably IRS) with him. That kind of crime is not unusual in this country. He murdered people in that building just like many people on death rows across the country have murdered people.
Of course the people he killed and their families matter! Victims' families in all murders matter enormously. No one said they didn't matter. We were talking about the clear fact that the man was very mentally illl by the time he did the things he did. The definition of "terrorist" and "terrorism" is still not clearly defined.....although there does seem to be a consistency in the definitions out there that a terrorist is trying to use coercion/fear to attain a political goal. What was the political goal of the Texas guy? What kind of political change did he expect to achieve by killing himself and others in that building? It was a crime, IMO. It was murder. He wanted to kill himself and take other people (probably IRS) with him. That kind of crime is not unusual in this country. He murdered people in that building just like many people on death rows across the country have murdered people.
You have made numerous posts supporting this guy's actions, yet you never thought of the victims. Please show me a post on this thread where you're had any compassion for the victims.
You seem to be having no problem defining those of middle-eastern extraction as terrorists, while homegrown, not so much.
That seems to be a good definition, and your hero seems to fit that description. He was sending a message to the IRS, as his death screed attests.
He murdered multiple people and left a screed stating why.
It's pretty straight-forward and simple.
I'm mad at the government, I don't like you, I'll make my point against the government and kill some innocent people, destroy their families, cost the taxpayers a lot of money fixing the building and make my stand against the government.
The definition of "terrorist" and "terrorism" is still not clearly defined.....although there does seem to be a consistency in the definitions out there that a terrorist is trying to use coercion/fear to attain a political goal. What was the political goal of the Texas guy? What kind of political change did he expect to achieve by killing himself and others in that building?
He clearly states his "political goal" in his essay He said the IRS is a corrupt agency that selectively taxes certain individuals and that it cost him a significant portion of his life. His act was done to send a message both physically and to get people to read his manifesto as he knew this incident would attract attention and publicize his writing. The political change he was seeking was to get people to view the IRS as he did.
Did the Luby's killer have a grudge against cafeteria chains? Did he type a 6 page essay specifically detailing his dislike toward cafeteria chains? Did he make this essay available for everyone to read after he committed his acts stating he was going to send a message to cafeteria chains?
The difference is Hasan like Stack were both motivated by a specific ideology and saw their victims as a threat that had to be hurt in some manner. Their acts were not random.
You would have a point if this guy just randomly ran his car into a McDonalds killing people because his wife left him the day before. Stack clearly spent years forming these ideas. Have you had a chance to read his essay? It's truly disturbing but it also shows you this guy has felt this way for a long time. This is a not person who suffered from a bout of depression and just went off. Here is the link again, I think you will change your mind after you read it. There is a link to a PDF in the article
The Texas guy spent YEARS slowly driving himself INSANE. Does anyone think that Ted Kazinski is not insane??? A person doesn't have to just suddenly "snap" to become mentally ill/insane. The process can take a long time. It someone is becoming obsessed and enraged over somethey they perceive is being done to them which is not fair and is destroying their lives, IF THEY DO NOT SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP, they very easily can drive themselves insane. The rage will destroy them. As it did this man. He definitely needed psychiatric help, desperately needed it. I agree with you, he didn't just suffer a bout of depression and "went off." He spent years driving himself nuts.
The Texas guy spent YEARS slowly driving himself INSANE. Does anyone think that Ted Kazinski is not insane??? A person doesn't have to just suddenly "snap" to become mentally ill/insane. The process can take a long time. It someone is becoming obsessed and enraged over somethey they perceive is being done to them which is not fair and is destroying their lives, IF THEY DO NOT SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP, they very easily can drive themselves insane. The rage will destroy them. As it did this man. He definitely needed psychiatric help, desperately needed it. I agree with you, he didn't just suffer a bout of depression and "went off." He spent years driving himself nuts.
Fair enough but where do you draw the line between ideology and insanity as a motivation for killing? Because you can apply your same argument to many Muslim terrorists as they spent years driving themselves insane too. Does anyone not think Ted Kazinski, the unabomber, was not a domestic terrorist? Does anyone not think Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not terrorists? How is this person any more insane than Timothy McVeigh? Again, what specific reasons do you think makes this person not a terrorist?
He clearly states his "political goal" in his essay He said the IRS is a corrupt agency that selectively taxes certain individuals and that it cost him a significant portion of his life. His act was done to send a message both physically and to get people to read his manifesto as he knew this incident would attract attention and publicize his writing. The political change he was seeking was to get people to view the IRS as he did.
The rantings of a mad man like the Texas guy hardly compare to the very real and sane 9/11 terrorists. I would suggest that any people out there who "choose" to now see the IRS as the Texas guy did, already had a propensity to do so and they also are nurturing ENORMOUS RAGE at the government. Haven't you noticed some of the more right wingers gingerly putting their toes in that water by saying at least the guy died for what he believed in? THAT is sheer insanity!When you fail to recognize the difference between a seriously mentally ill person and a very sane and calculating terrorist, like the 9/11 terrorists, then you're losing perspective and you're revealing that fear is WINNING.
The rantings of a mad man like the Texas guy hardly compare to the very real and sane 9/11 terrorists. I would suggest that any people out there who "choose" to now see the IRS as the Texas guy did, already had a propensity to do so and they also are nurturing ENORMOUS RAGE at the government. Haven't you noticed some of the more right wingers gingerly putting their toes in that water by saying at least the guy died for what he believed in? THAT is sheer insanity!When you fail to recognize the difference between a seriously mentally ill person and a very sane and calculating terrorist, like the 9/11 terrorists, then you're losing perspective and you're revealing that fear is WINNING.
How do you know the 9/11 terrorists were sane? Are you psychiatrist? Did you examine each one personally? Do you know their history? And again, how do you know that Stack was insane? You can't state that based on your gut feeling. You have to examine a person in a variety of ways and have the training to make that assessment. What evidence do you have to show that Stack wasn't calculating? Thus far the evidence indicates he was calculating.
You have made numerous posts supporting this guy's actions, yet you never thought of the victims. Please show me a post on this thread where you're had any compassion for the victims.
You seem to be having no problem defining those of middle-eastern extraction as terrorists, while homegrown, not so much.
That seems to be a good definition, and your hero seems to fit that description. He was sending a message to the IRS, as his death screed attests.
He murdered multiple people and left a screed stating why.
It's pretty straight-forward and simple.
I'm mad at the government, I don't like you, I'll make my point against the government and kill some innocent people, destroy their families, cost the taxpayers a lot of money fixing the building and make my stand against the government.
He discounts any reasons put forth by Stack because he is convinced he is insane. Yet, Clockworking can't accept the idea that a Muslim terrorist might also be insane and his religous reasons for killing might in fact be based on reasons of insanity. It just shows they are choosing to view these incidents differently and apply different standards.
Why isn't he referred to as a domestic terrorist. His intentions were clear. He was trying to kill IRS employees in his attempt to bombard an IRS building. I thought only Muslims commit acts of terrorism but I guess he doesn't count because he is White, non-Muslim and only targeted the IRS. That's not terrorism right? He isn't a suicide bomber because he didn't use bombs...just a plane right? It doesn't matter if he took out half the side of the building right? Yeah, he is not a suicide bomber. He is just an angry person from Texas.
You wouldn't want to give them some time t investigate, would you?
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