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so, i'm a believer that as a culture we have genuinely lost something along the way by no longer having modern day rights of passage where boys become men. sure you can define a man as over 18years with a penis, but that is not what i am talking about. i am talking about male identity and masculinity, how a man discover's himself, his role and expectations in society and his relationships with others. and as the author of the article below points out, many men are experiencing social and relationship challenges:
What is at stake is men’s ultimate acceptance, understanding, and governance over their own natures as well as an individual and social recognition of what manhood actually entails. When a man can’t admit that the “manliest thing” about him is his insatiable sex drive or a yearning to be better than the next guy, then he is left to feel ashamed of these parts of himself or is compelled to deny their existence altogether – only to have them abruptly emerge during times of high stress and/or vulnerability.
By knowing and accepting potentially problematic aspects of our masculinity, we gain insight into the truth of ourselves and our relationships with others. But a man, who is unwilling to admit that he is aggressive, sexual, protective, or competitive –at least to himself— sacrifices his capacity to oversee and make use of those parts of himself that he is too afraid or ashamed to acknowledge.
in a similar article, it was noted that many men are discovering ways to find male guidance and mentoring through online forums, blogs, and other resources on the internet and social media:
This leaves many young guys at a loss these days when it comes to asking for advice and seeking guidance, not just about sex, but any tough issue or embarrassing issue that might come up in a young man’s life. Whether that be trying to figure out how to come-out to your parents, ask a girl on a date, fend off a bully, or tie a necktie at some point in a man’s life he’ll need the guidance of those who came before.
One key contributor to many of the problems that young men face today is a lack of guidance and mentorship – whether in personal or professional capacities. For a variety of social and cultural factors, many men, and would be mentors, are less willing and/or less able to form close relationships with younger men and boys than in the past. The reasons behind this cultural shift are many, including: changes in family demographics that leave fathers out of touch with their children; the high rate at which men are imprisoned in this country, especially within some marginalized communities; and misplaced social suspicion regarding men’s interactions with young people.
The result is that many young men are left to haphazardly amble into manhood with only their adolescent instincts to guide them. The results of this social experiment have been troubling to say the least. In the past twenty years, the proportion of men attending college has fallen significantly; while male rates for substance use, suicide, and violence (including school shooting and mass killings) continue to rise to alarming levels.
i've thought about this topics for several years now, and mostly through personal discovery, reflection and development. and i think there is definitely another evolution of masculinity from the primitive protector model to the provider model of decades past to something new and different today.
what are you thoughts? are men getting the male mentoring they need through modern male role models, the internet and just sheer social interactions with others? or have we simply "matured" as a society that male identity is negligible, like it's over rated and guys can figure it out for themselves??
and, of course, do you think this has any impact on dating and relationships?
Last edited by Dr. Clean; 04-14-2015 at 07:10 PM..
any for entertainment and reflection purposes on this topics, here are a couple of clips from antiquity, and what i think is one of the remaining rights of passage for men, military boot camp and service.
I've seen a range of fatherly guidance in my extended family, and I see all kinds of modeling. Though most of it falls under the "as long as you are a good person and productive member of society, we support however you turn out."
My husband is a more "rub dirt into it, and pick yourself up" kinda guy (leans towards old school) and we have agree that (despite me pretty much being the same way, goes for the girls too), that I will be more of the carrot than the stick. Other family men are a little more metro in their range of interests and share that with the boys.
The whole family is very open with kids though, and has access to a wide range of male relatives as role models.
The absolutely last place I would refer a young person is the internet.
The main reason is that no matter how much of jerk you are, you can find a site with like minded people agreeing with you.
It's the internet, you find what you are looking for.
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My husband is a more "rub dirt into it, and pick yourself up" kinda guy (leans towards old school) and we have agree that (despite me pretty much being the same way, goes for the girls too), that I will be more of the carrot than the stick. Other family men are a little more metro in their range of interests and share that with the boys. . . .
The absolutely last place I would refer a young person is the internet.
The main reason is that no matter how much of jerk you are, you can find a site with like minded people agreeing with you.
It's the internet, you find what you are looking for.
well, you really don't have much influence over young ppl's (<18yo) access to the internet info, they are finding it, even here on CDR with these random high schoolers posing as adults and posting adult situations of interest. can't say i blame them, i would have done the same at their age if i was curious about sex, dating and relationships.
it's interesting that you note your husband's approach. the other day i was at a sports bar and a football player size black gentleman was walking past me at the bar with his 4-6yo son as they were coming from the mens restroom. then all of the sudden his son darted out and started to run in restaurant and not 4-5 steps later he spilled face down and slide on the floor. his son then turned his head and looked at his dad (almost as if asking for permission to cry) and dad just gave him this "get up and recover" look and hand gesture as if slipping falling and scraping yourself was just a fact of life. and odd that my instinctual reaction would have been to run over and make sure the kid was okay.
well, you really don't have much influence over young ppl's (<18yo) access to the internet info, they are finding it, even here on CDR with these random high schoolers posing as adults and posting adult situations of interest. can't say i blame them, i would have done the same at their age if i was curious about sex, dating and relationships.
it's interesting that you note your husband's approach. the other day i was at a sports bar and a football player size black gentleman was walking past me at the bar with his 4-6yo son as they were coming from the mens restroom. then all of the sudden his son darted out and started to run in restaurant and not 4-5 steps later he spilled face down and slide on the floor. his son then turned his head and looked at his dad (almost as if asking for permission to cry) and dad just gave him this "get up and recover" look and hand gesture as if slipping falling and scraping yourself was just a fact of life. and odd that my instinctual reaction would have been to run over and make sure the kid was okay.
Well, yes we do. Our house, our rules. And while when at a friend's house some exposure might occur, it is certainly not more than a drop in a bucket versus the influence of male family and friends.
Sheesh, the boy still doesn't even know his Mom gets copies of every text in and out. Which has been enlightening to say the least.
I'm sure some stuff happens that we are not aware of, but we are aware of much more than he thinks.
At his age it's going to be porn, and not "should a woman pay half the expenses?"
Kids always do that when they fall, us moms were talking about that at Easter. Fall down and look for how they are supposed to react from the parent. You show it's no big deal and they follow suit (mostly). One mom was mad at the dad for NOT doing that with the daughters.
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Well, yes we do. Our house, our rules. And while when at a friend's house some exposure might occur, it is certainly not more than a drop in a bucket versus the influence of male family and friends.
Sheesh, the boy still doesn't even know his Mom gets copies of every text in and out. Which has been enlightening to say the least.
I'm sure some stuff happens that we are not aware of, but we are aware of much more than he thinks.
At his age it's going to be porn, and not "should a woman pay half the expenses?"
Kids always do that when they fall, us moms were talking about that at Easter. Fall down and look for how they are supposed to react from the parent. You show it's no big deal and they follow suit (mostly). One mom was mad at the dad for NOT doing that with the daughters.
your comment gave me chuckles cuz i remember my parents were the same. then i discovered my bicycle coule take me places far far away or to some random club houses me and my buds built from scrap wood and yard junk ... until i got in trouble, which occurred with some regularity. lol. i got lots of spanking with a belt, i'm sure all we well deserved in hindsight.
then one day when i was about 13 (at to bring this back to the topic), my dad gave me a good licking after i got in trouble again and said "that's it, i'm done spanking you, i can't do it anymore. from now on, you will be responsible for your actions, if you get in a fight, get arrested, go to jail or end up dead, you are solely responsible for your conduct and behavior. you are 100% responsible for your action and how you live your life." that was a defining moment for me.
your comment gave me chuckles cuz i remember my parents were the same. then i discovered my bicycle coule take me places far far away or to some random club houses me and my buds built from scrap wood and yard junk ... until i got in trouble, which occurred with some regularity. lol. i got lots of spanking with a belt, i'm sure all we well deserved in hindsight.
then one day when i was about 13 (at to bring this back to the topic), my dad gave me a good licking after i got in trouble again and said "that's it, i'm done spanking you, i can't do it anymore. from now on, you will be responsible for your actions, if you get in a fight, get arrested, go to jail or end up dead, you are solely responsible for your conduct and behavior. you are 100% responsible for your action and how you live your life." that was a defining moment for me.
That sounds like my husband. Though kidlet is not at that stage right now even though he just turned 13.
But, he does not have unsupervised internet and all computers are PW protected, his phone is a flip with not internet, all smart phones owned by others are PW protected. He lost privileges for not being responsible.
I think a helping factor is both my husband and myself were very bad teens..... we have experience on our side.
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I think this is very interesting, psychologically. But in this country (US) short of serving in the military, which men can still do, what were the rights of passage that made men feel like men that no longer happen? I am honestly not being fascetious but I know virtually nothing about boys, much less how boys begin to feel like men.
I know for me, and many other women, first time sex was a sort of right of passage. Becoming a mother, giving birth and nurturing a helpless newborn certainly made me feel more like a woman than any other event in my life. Being solely responsible for my children made me feel like an adult. However these were all events that I wasn't guided into, necessarily, nor did anyone express to me that I wasn't a "real woman" until these things happened.
More men today are sensitive than other generations because from grade school they are taught they are not as intelligent as girls, and that girls feelings matter more than boys feelings. So because of this girls grow up expecting everything and boys grow up with low self-esteem and result to getting in trouble to channel their disapointments.
All we hear about now is how women are getting ahead in the world while men are falling behind. Even on TV men are now portrayed as idiots who hit on anything with a pulse and the woman has the upper hand and has to constantly correct them and put them in their place.
In reality though more guys today lack that self-confidence that their fathers had. While women have more confidence than their mothers had. Also, women tend to have a better support group when it comes to who defends them. Men on the other hand really do not have that support group. There really needs to be a balance. Once there is a balance then there will not be hostility and misunderstanding towards opposite genders.
The media and the internet do not help this. Instead, it gives a false sense of reality in what to expect from the opposite gender. This just creates a long list of must-have requirements that normally would not be required had they met in a more traditional old fashioned setting, like meeting at school, etc...
So yes, I agree boys today are misguided in several aspects, but it is not something they are choosing, it is something that is just happening to them from society.
I think this is very interesting, psychologically. But in this country (US) short of serving in the military, which men can still do, what were the rights of passage that made men feel like men that no longer happen? I am honestly not being fascetious but I know virtually nothing about boys, much less how boys begin to feel like men.
I know for me, and many other women, first time sex was a sort of right of passage. Becoming a mother, giving birth and nurturing a helpless newborn certainly made me feel more like a woman than any other event in my life. Being solely responsible for my children made me feel like an adult. However these were all events that I wasn't guided into, necessarily, nor did anyone express to me that I wasn't a "real woman" until these things happened.
But I don't know how it works for men.
we lost part of that experience by leaving rural america (working farm fields with dad) for urban centers that offered more sedentary career opportunities for men, yet craftsmen carpenters and technicians are still with us (men teaching other men their trade). oddly though, there is still a common perception that such careers don't measure up to jobs requiring college degrees. although i hear it's making a big comeback among professional women. some women, however, still won't "marry down"....
anyway, i got away from your question a bit. first, i openly invite any man over 40 to express his opinion about anything related to the subject of modern men, what it means to be a man, stuff that made a difference in their life, and in general share their thoughts on how modern men relate to women. cuz all guys go through this. either you live learn and grow, or you remain locked into adolescent behavior patterns and related thoughts; you end up being dependent on a parent for emotional and at times financial support. the man is unable to financially support himself and his lifestyle. a man must earn a living. otherwise, he feels valueless, not worthy of a woman's love sometimes too, which strikes at the core of his confidence in being able "to keep" his SO. and women at least want to be with a man who has the potential to be successful in terms of financial resources. a man's earning capacity represents the quality of life he is able to afford for himself, and wife and kids.... or perhaps better said that it represents the quality of wife he can afford.
oh btw, do yourself a favor and google that topic and you will find it is just not an isolated cultural event, it is tremendously wide spread. even jesus was tempted by the devil after being immersed in water by john the baptist.
so what have we substituted for "rights of passage"? i have some thoughts i'll post later after i organized them in my head a bit...
in the meantime, here is a classic in the field. observe the behavior and character traits of the dominant personality in each scene.
Last edited by Dr. Clean; 04-15-2015 at 01:20 AM..
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