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I wrote this as a post for another thread, but it got too far OT .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caddy1316
I see alpha and game as synonymous. And not the silly PUA "hit on everything that moves and lower her self esteem" misconceptions that are thrown around CD. "Alpha" and game are nothing more than building "inner game" aka true self confidence. .
They are historical origins, not actual misconceptions. PUA has changed a lot over time.
When I was reading PUA stuff, 5 years ago or so, the websites and forums explicitly stated, over and over, that the purpose of PUA was to pressure girls into having ONS that they did not want and would never want to repeat. It was skirting the borderline of the legal definition of rape, and often crossing over.
But now there is this relatively huge population of young men who have turned to PUA in an attempt to learn how to get LTRs, and how to work through social disabilities. They seem to mostly be AS and/or severely depressed and/or have pretty severe social anxiety.
And for some of them, it has really helped. They are able to find support for working on their self esteem, and the formulaic scripts for social interaction make useful training wheels. And it was guys on this forum who taught me about this use for PUA, for which I thank them.
There is a problem, though. PUA is still riddled with slogans and myths and sound bites from its misogynist origins, and guys who want to use it to learn about real relationships vary a lot in their ability to filter that out.
We get a lot of young men here on CD, for example, who honestly believe that women over 30 have a hard time finding husbands, or that most women are gold diggers. For people who have experience with real life, that's just laughable. But they really think it's true, and it guides their choices and behaviour, and keeps them stuck dateless and depressed.
So, that's why you see people making disparaging comments about PUA here. It ends up being the source of a lot of illogical, self-defeating beliefs, and people, I think, vacillate between frustration with that and wanting to help. And helping means encouraging those guys to question some aspects of what they have learned.
But for these guys to whom PUA has been the light in the darkness, it feels threatening to question parts of it. And that's how we get the conflict.
I think we just need to recognise, all of us, that the awesome parts of PUA and the terribly harmful parts are all mixed together, and that sorting them out is a big job. And on this forum, we might have just the right mix of people to do it.
I wrote this as a post for another thread, but it got too far OT .
They are historical origins, not actual misconceptions. PUA has changed a lot over time.
When I was reading PUA stuff, 5 years ago or so, the websites and forums explicitly stated, over and over, that the purpose of PUA was to pressure girls into having ONS that they did not want and would never want to repeat. It was skirting the borderline of the legal definition of rape, and often crossing over.
But now there is this relatively huge population of young men who have turned to PUA in an attempt to learn how to get LTRs, and how to work through social disabilities. They seem to mostly be AS and/or severely depressed and/or have pretty severe social anxiety.
And for some of them, it has really helped. They are able to find support for working on their self esteem, and the formulaic scripts for social interaction make useful training wheels. And it was guys on this forum who taught me about this use for PUA, for which I thank them.
There is a problem, though. PUA is still riddled with slogans and myths and sound bites from its misogynist origins, and guys who want to use it to learn about real relationships vary a lot in their ability to filter that out.
We get a lot of young men here on CD, for example, who honestly believe that women over 30 have a hard time finding husbands, or that most women are gold diggers. For people who have experience with real life, that's just laughable. But they really think it's true, and it guides their choices and behaviour, and keeps them stuck dateless and depressed.
So, that's why you see people making disparaging comments about PUA here. It ends up being the source of a lot of illogical, self-defeating beliefs, and people, I think, vacillate between frustration with that and wanting to help. And helping means encouraging those guys to question some aspects of what they have learned.
But for these guys to whom PUA has been the light in the darkness, it feels threatening to question parts of it. And that's how we get the conflict.
I think we just need to recognise, all of us, that the awesome parts of PUA and the terribly harmful parts are all mixed together, and that sorting them out is a big job. And on this forum, we might have just the right mix of people to do it.
What do y'all think of this?
This is the only post I have ever agreed with you on, partially. Not everyonr who subscribes to game had women issues before hand. I've always done decent with women. I consider myself attractive, judge for yourself my pic is in my profile. But reading into game and the manosphere has changed my outlook on dating and relationships for the better.
I think that when a person wants to communicate, they should use the words that mean what they are trying to convey. A "pick up artist" is a specific thing. Sending some poor shmoe off to google PUA in the hopes that he only gleen the good stuff is just dumb. For right or wrong language means what it means.
I think this is a great thread to start, and you brought some very, very good points. And I can add in some of my own experiences to the discussion . . . because I am one of those that have used some of the "PUA literature" to help me along as training wheels, as I am a little like the characters of Big Bang Theory. NOTHING about male-female interaction seemed obvious to me, and everything was a mystery to me, and I for the longest time, when through a lot of trail and error because I'm more of a thinker than a feeler.
However, somehow I knew to separate what seemed to me to be, my intuition, to be dumb things (like "negs" or "cocky and funny") that kind of stuff I knew would seem forced and fake if I tried it out, (and by trail and error) it indeed was.
However, it was the PUA literature where the lightbulb went off, that its better to "hold back a little, don't try so hard, give her the opportunity to miss and chase you to, and have a life and don't be SO available early on". And you can do this without "playing games"
Funny thing is, I DID have a life this whole time, but one of things I found out, was that SO much "relationship advice" was geared toward those who were already in committed relationships." No one ever told me, if you apply the same thing when you first meet women, they are going to run away from you! Friends and family just gave the same empty advice of "be yourself" (which is important but doesn't help in this situation).
or that when women complain "how come guys don't call, or call back much later than after a great first date??" I figured oh well, let me do the opposite and then I'll be a catch because I'll do the opposite of those guys. No one told me that too much eagerness and calling/texting is not a good idea. I had to first get insight from the PUA literature. I DID need a paradigm shift. Watching old movies of how men courted women were just not a good idea.
The other thing for me, is that now I am on the west coast, I have so much more opportunity to meet people doing the things that I have an actual passion for anyways, so I can connect with many more women. I love nature and the outdoors, I love hiking, wildlife watching, touring national parks, etc. more than anything. Back in the Chicago suburbs, where its freezing 6-8 months out of the year and the state is 80-90% covered in cornfields, you just don't meet people doing that stuff, I had to be someone I'm not, pretending to care about the Cubs and white sox, street festivals and bars.
I do hope others can learn to separate the good advice from the bad advice.
A game by definition is a competition where one or more parties lose, and one wins. When you apply that term to relationships it's always going to have a negative connotation. In relationships you want to strive for win-win.
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PUA kinda like Weight Watchers wouldn't exist if there wasn't a Massive demand for it and it working. There are tons of men who were virgins before PUA, and now can get laid virtually on command. Women always say men never want to improve themselves, but when there is a product helping men be better with women they hate on it.
However, It's not saying anything in terms of tips/advice that men haven't passed down to other men for generations as I said in a thread I made last year
A game by definition is a competition where one or more parties lose, and one wins. When you apply that term to relationships it's always going to have a negative connotation. In relationships you want to strive for win-win.
This is a joke. You get what you deserve...bsing women with gimmicks is a plan for disaster....game is polish,,,if you have a pinto no amount of polish in the world will change that...and what happens when the booze or game wears off.?...if you are on vacation and looking to smash quick...it may work...other than that, just go for whats in your league....if u need game for this ok, it makes it fun, but you should not con a gf...
This is a joke. You get what you deserve...bsing women with gimmicks is a plan for disaster....game is polish,,,if you have a pinto no amount of polish in the world will change that...and what happens when the booze or game wears off.?...if you are on vacation and looking to smash quick...it may work...other than that, just go for whats in your league....if u need game for this ok, it makes it fun, but you should not con a gf...
You're definition of game is extremely top level and gimmicky. This is a fight I'm never going to win here but shockingly, I think Nila knows where I'm coming from
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