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If a guy participates in the originally mentioned activities every once in a while, and doesn't act like it's life or death how they turn out, I can deal with it. It's immature when they become a large part of his life and he gets emotionally involved with them, talks about them too much, predictably spends every evening taking part in them.
I think most of us spend some of our leisure time doing something others would consider immature. It's part of being alive and it's good to ditch some stress. I mean, how many of us sing in the car like we're on stage and it really matters? Who dances around the room because the song is just that good? It's not going to win us any maturity awards, but you've gotta have fun sometime. Being mature all the time is boring.
Agreed, that's really horrible. I don't know who would want to see an animal hurt, but it's pretty sick if you ask me.
I think, to be honest, a lot of people have the martyr complex a bit. I will even fess up to having that a little bit, I mean sometimes I'll be working so hard, 80 hours a week, don't get out much, don't have as much fun, because I believe down the road this work will pay off. So I sometimes can think, "woe is me, I work so hard, I'm a martyr, fun is for other people, not for me," etc. But I do this work in service of myself, I mean it's for purely selfish reasons that I want to succeed, i.e. I'm not working 80 hours a week for charity, I'm doing it because I want to build a career and achieve personal success. Other people have the martyr complex about their lives because I really believe they want to find some meaning and value that isn't there, and I think deep down they know that, but it's better to delude yourself into thinking what you're doing is ultimately important. So some guy with 2 kids and a pretty mediocre job, I mean a job that pays well but that he doesn't enjoy much, he'll work his job, get very little joy out of it, go home, get yelled at a little bit by the wife sometimes, do chores other times, take care of the kids, etc. He doesn't have much fun but he hides behind this shield of being "responsible," like he's a superior man because he's "sacrificing" for everyone else's benefit, i.e. the hero, the martyr. But this really isn't the case, I'm sorry. Nobody forced this guy to have kids. Nobody forced him to work his lousy job. He could have pursued a more care-free life with a lower-paid but more spiritually rewarding job. And we don't need 2 more kids, no offense, we have 6.5 billion people on earth, the world would have been FINE without his 2 kids. So it's false martyrdom. It's not something great this guy is accomplishing, yet he sees someone else his age going to Cabo with friends, or playing video games on weekends, and he remembers back 10, 15 years ago when he did those things and thinks, "Those guys are just immature, they never grew up." That holier-than-thou attitude is really stupid for a lot of reasons, but mainly because I really think the average person equates "growing up" and "being mature" with "not having fun" and "putting others' happiness first." This is a STUPID concept.
Nobody cares how much you sacrifice when you're dead. You don't win any points for how many hours you suffered in your job, or how miserable your life was. You need to LIVE and have fun! But I guess life would be too unbearable if these people ditched the martyr nonsense, started thinking of ways to change their life to bring them greater happiness, and thought about themselves a bit more. You might be surprised how much other peoples' lives improve when you think of yourself more, too. My mom was a great woman, always looking out for everyone else, the most truly selfless person I've ever known, but she was TOO selfless. Sometimes we had to tell her, mom, go do something fun! For yourself! Take up a new hobby. Stop worrying about everyone else, you're making us nervous. You need to learn how to have more fun. Ultimately, when someone you love or a friend of yours is having a good time, and having fun, that makes you happy too. I bet a lot of marriages would be a lot more successful if both partners were happy a greater percentage of the time, with their lives in general.
Yikes! That was a lot to take in Jonathan! I'm hoping it wasn't directed specifically at me, because I'd be a little mystified to be honest.
I understand what you're saying and I hope you don't find this patronizing because it's not meant to be but, people want different things from life and different things at different times in their life. Nobody is right or wrong, just different.
How you perceive and actualize your life, one would hope that it is to your own satisfaction. Ultimately you are the person you will spend the most time with in your life. There are people that are very happy with the idea of getting married and having kids and if that's what they want, power to them. I'm quite sure that sometimes it does become difficult and tiring and un-enjoyable for people no matter what their circumstances, but that's life. It has ups and downs. Twists and turns.
I'm not particularly interested in getting married and having children but then I'm not driven by what appears to be your definition of personal success either. (I don't think there's anything wrong with your definition of personal success, but it is not one I share.)
I know there will be people that will care a great deal about the things that I have sacrificed in my life, after I am gone. I do know that they love me and will miss me and that the time we spent together, the conversations we have had, the impact my life has had on theirs will resonate for at least awhile after I am gone. Perhaps I won't ever be a millionare and I sure as hell know I'll never be on tele (it holds NO interest for me whatsoever), I'm unconcerned about "making my mark" or "making it big" OR even "securing my place in history". It doesn't make my life any more or less valid. Or anybody elses life more or less valid in my eyes. We are here, we are all different and the ebb and flow of life, chaos theory, the randomness of the universe, plague, war, pestulence and a whole plethora of things will impact whether times are good or bad.
I think we both agree that we should all strive to be happy. I guess I'm not so worried about what it all means if I am not happy or if those around me are not happy and I suppose I'm really not one for making comparisons or assumptions about other people's lives. I'm busy dealing with mine.
There are hobbies that people have that they thoroughly enjoy, that I would rather poke a stick in my own eye than be tortured with but good on them for doing what they like. Just as my life and how I live it isn't going to appeal to everyone, neither will my hobbies and interests, but it's mine. Just as you have yours.
As to any kind of animal fighting as a hobby, well I have no tolerance for it AT ALL and can't see me working up a tolerance for it at any point in the future.
Moonshadow -- no, I'm not sure why you'd think I was directing that at you, definitely not. And I agree with almost everything you said there. I don't for the record play video games often, I'm talking seriously about 10 times a year, but you know I wish I did have more time to play video games! Heck, they're fun. I grew up having two groups of friends, one group included the biggest jock in our school and a few other very athletic, active kids, and the other group were basically the nerds, kind of the rejects of the school. It was an interesting situation, I never thought about it at the time, but I really was the only kid who bridged both of those groups, because those two groups of friends did not mingle. I would only hang out with one or the other at any given time. With one group, we'd go outside and play, whether it was just running around the backyard, or squirt gun fights, or basketball, soccer, frisbee, throwing things at each other, etc. The other it was almost purely video games. But even the jocks loved video games, too, every guy plays video games. And in today's society, video games are not for kids, they are for adults mainly. That's because more money is spent by adults (18+) on video games than by kids, also because they obviously have a lot more discretionary income. So I always played lots of video games when I was younger, up until the point where life started not to be as much fun, around 15/16 when I would spent 14-16 hours a day on school. So if you ask me, playing video games is great, it's a blast, but most of us just don't have time to play much anymore. I say kudos to those who do.
I wouldn't particularly want to argue that someone's life is more valid by how famous they are, but I would say their life is proportionally "greater," by the definitions of greatness that work for historical purposes, let's say. I mean for me, I'll put it out there that if I'm 85 or whatever and haven't left my mark, I haven't become at least someone in the film industry, with significant credits to my name, yeah, I'd be disappointed no matter how much fun I had in my life. Billions of people live and die on earth. Very few can be remembered in history books. I would like to be one of those people. It may be an extremely lofty goal, but better to try and fail than never try at all, in my opinion.
I'm not knocking people who want the marriage and kids route. My point was only that if that's what you want, go for it, but go into it knowing that's what you really want, and realizing the responsibilities you are taking. Nobody should be asked to feel sorry for you, look up to you, or respect you because you decided to have kids. That isn't something I respect at all. It's a life decision you should make for yourself. Some people seem to think, "Well I had kids, everyone should realize how great I am, how mature I am, I work hard for my family, I'm so much better than someone just pursuing their own selfish goals!" No, you're not. Not at all. You made a decision that presumably you thought would be best for your life. If you're not happy with that decision, you made the wrong one. Don't take it out on people who are happy and single and carefree. I see this a lot where people think it's somehow impressive the more things they can spout off about how supposedly "selfless" they are, and how someone else who has enjoyed their life is "not mature" and "not responsible." These are stupid words thrown about by small-minded people. Everyone has their own path, what is best for him or her, so it strikes me as jealousy coming across when someone starts calling out another person for being immature and irresponsible mainly because that person has a lot more fun in life. If I owned a surf shop and surfed a lot, ran my business, and drank with friends every day, enjoying my life, I'd get a bunch of people in the 'burbs with miserable lives (who would admit to themselves but not others that their lives suck) saying how I was "wasting" my life and how they were so much more mature for pumping out a few kids and helping some large corporation's bottom line. In reality, neither of us have much claim to greatness, since I'm just some small-timer with a surf shop, and the other dude is just some working stiff with a few average kids. Therefore, again, we come back to the fact that there's no reason for either person to judge the other, unless out of jealousy. I doubt the surfer dude with his small business would tell the working stiff what a loser he was, because he wouldn't envy that lifestyle and would just think, eh, that guy is doing what he wants, I'm doing what I want. But there's a much larger propensity for people in the other situation to want everyone to conform, because misery loves company. I say both lifestyles should leave each other alone.
The way I see people throw around the word "mature" I think it's very undesirable. It's always used to mean giving up happiness for something seen as more useful for society. I frankly couldn't care less about adding up some sort of list of "gifts" to society, as if my only point in the world is to be used up by society and give all that I have to it. I don't think so. It's a constant process of ebb and flow, ideally, you should take from society what you can, and give back what you can, like a successful businessman gives a product to society, takes money from society, then gives back in the form of employment, taxes, and charitable donations. A lot of people don't seem to have that view. They seem to think, well, my job in life is to have a few kids, work my way through life, and if I suffer in the process that's fine because at least I'm being "mature." I'm not sure who they expect to thank them for this process. It's like they think the more they suffer, the more "mature" they act, the better person they are somehow. It doesn't really work that way.
I agree with JonathanLB's post and understand what he meant about his mom being too selfless. And it ties into why I find most women with kids very boring. Women have a tendency to lose their individual identities/themselves in the nurturing of their kids and the tending to their husbands needs. And that is why I knew I could never have kids. I need to be myself and follow my passions. If I had married and had kids in my 20's, that would have prevented me from the wonderful years I tried to be in successful rock band (and I still have most of my old guitars, I should have kept all my equipment as an investment!), I wouldn't have had my fun in my little cars, I certainly wouldn't be collecting antiques and considered an expert in my field.
I have absolutely no regrets in terms of not having had a traditional female life. Selfish is good. If you don't look out for your own best interests, no one else will. And having kids is no guarantee that you will be taken care of in your old age. Once they grow up and marry, they are on to their own full lives.
Moonshadow -- no, I'm not sure why you'd think I was directing that at you, definitely not.
No worries. I just wasn't sure, because you'd quoted me about the dog/animal fighting and replied to that, if the rest of the post was directed at me also. I didn't think so but wasn't sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanLB
And I agree with almost everything you said there.
Ok, an example of a hobby I could judge a man over would be dog (or other animal) fighting.
Dogfighting/c*ckfighting are completely unacceptable activities to enjoy watching or participating in.
However I feel that it's not a typical American male pastime. It seems to mainly appeal to men that are recently from another country, one that doesn't value an animal life very highly. In many poorer countries, animals are disposable and viewed as food or a work animal. There is no concern if their living conditions are poor or they are in discomfort or acute pain. No love or respect is given to them.
I was told many years ago that in many African languages, their word for wildlife is the same word they use for meat.
OK, everyone, I had an epiphany this morning...I realized what the hell do I care if someone plays video games and does everything else listed... I could really care less. When I started thinking about older men I have known over the years there are some that enjoy woodworking, playing musical instruments, restoring old cars, etc...I guess video games are replacing the others as hobbies...
So, to all my fellow CD posters, I stand corrected.
OK, everyone, I had an epiphany this morning...I realized what the hell do I care if someone plays video games and does everything else listed... I could really care less. When I started thinking about older men I have known over the years there are some that enjoy woodworking, playing musical instruments, restoring old cars, etc...I guess video games are replacing the others as hobbies...
So, to all my fellow CD posters, I stand corrected.
I ask my husband earlier about this, since he enjoys playing guitar hero.
He said," Its purely entertainment."
I do believe that I would rather see him sitting on the couch on his day off, playing that thing, versus out to the bars,etc.
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That was a lot to take in Jonathan! I'm hoping it wasn't directed specifically at me, because I'd be a little mystified to be honest. 
I just wasn't sure, because you'd quoted me about the dog/animal fighting and replied to that, if the rest of the post was directed at me also. I didn't think so but wasn't sure. 
