Christians: Get your LDS Questions answered here!! (salvation, grace, translation)

[Alpha8207]

This post has been a long time coming and I apologize for the delay.

I'd like a place where I can ask LDS members or former members questions regarding the faith and try and understand why mainstream Christians consider the LDS a cult.

Couple of ground rules:

LDS Members: Since I don't use the Book of Mormon in my faith (I'm a mainstream Christian) and since I've been told in other threads that the Book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible, I would like only to use Biblical references/scripture. If you need to quote the Book of Mormon in your response, I don't have a problem with that. Just understand I want to understand your religion as it compares to a strickly biblical standard. I hope that makes sense and it doesn't sound condescending. What I mean is let's use the things we can agree on to talk about the things we may differ on. That may sound better.

Christians:Please don't call these folks names. I'd like for any and all Christians that have legitimate questions to ask them, and give these folks an opportunity to respond. I think the LDS approach mainstream Christians with their defenses up because of the way we approach them and accuse them of things.

I want this to be beneficial for all sides.

I'm starting this thread because I am a lay leader in my church, and many times people will come to me and say "Alpha , wut's da deal with these here Mormons....how come they going to hell." (phonetics added to stress the lack of knowledge these folks have about the LDS)

I'm trying to understand:
1- Why mainstream believers call them a cult?
2- What the main differences are between the way I view Christ and His atoning work on the cross and the way the LDS views it?
3- If the answer to number 2 proves out to be something that would be considered 'eternally fatal'?
4- How LDS members reconcile scripture to some of their beliefs?

Maybe other issues will come up during the life of the thread.

I also think it's important to remember, the label you are 'known' as doesn't speak to your individual salvation and I suspect there are 'saved' and 'lost' in all our pews.

I think that's everything, ask away!

[Alpha8207]

I think I'll ask my first question.

I've seen several LDS here that say the LDS don't believe that there's a hell. Or if there is then it's only for really bad people.

Clearly, there's scripture that addresses a place of condemnation, I think specifically of the parable of the sheep and the goats and that the goats will be sent out to this place known for its 'weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

How does the Church of the LDS arrive at their interpretation of no hell?

Or is that inaccurate?

[dncngrl1964]

Hi Alpha

My husband is a Mormon
he believes there is a hell
with that said
he did say that there are certain things that must be done to find your way there, just as there are certain things you must do in order to find your way to heaven
pergatory is for those who have not fulfilled either places requirements
I may not be 100% correct on this but that's what i got out of it

[dreameyes]

We definately believe in a place like Hell. We call it "outer darknes"

I posted this in another thread. I'm not sure if you got a chance to read it or not so I'll post it again:

From mormon doctrine written by Bruce R. McKonkie (a former member of our church's 12 apostles)

"Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseperable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.
This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind, excepting only the sons of perdition. In their case, after their resurrection, "they shall return again to their own place" (Doctrine and Covenants 88:32); after coming forth in immortality and standing before the judgment bar, because they are "filthy still,...they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." (2 Nephi 9-13-16) They are resurrected but they are not redeemed from the devil.
But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek. Those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore, be damned; their eternal progression will be cut short; they will not fill the full measure of their creation, but in eternity will be ministering servants to more worthy persons.
Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation."

So I would surmize that other Christian's belief of Hell would include our belief of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms which we do not believe will be
hell-like at all if that makes sense.

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

I think I'll ask my first question.

I've seen several LDS here that say the LDS don't believe that there's a hell. Or if there is then it's only for really bad people.

Clearly, there's scripture that addresses a place of condemnation, I think specifically of the parable of the sheep and the goats and that the goats will be sent out to this place known for its 'weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

How does the Church of the LDS arrive at their interpretation of no hell?

Or is that inaccurate?

Yes, there is a Hell; however, we do not believe it is a permanent place. Those who do not repent of their sins pay for those sins in Hell and are then released to a reward befitting their overall behavior in this life. Furthermore, Hell is not a literal lake of fire. The mental anguish one suffers in Hell is like a burning fire.

You have me over a barrel in trying to explain all of this without using our canon, specifically what we call the Doctrine and Covenants, but I will do my best. There is a clue to the temporary nature of Hell in the story of David. As you recall, David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then had her husband, Uriah, placed at the head of battle so he would be killed. For the sin of maliciously taking the life of an innocent person, David was consigned to Hell; however, the Lord made a promise to David that he would not leave David in there forever. David talks about this in Palms 16:10 and other places I can’t remember.

Next, a clue to the suffering experienced when paying for our own sins in Hell is found in the Bible account of Christ’s suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane. Christ’s suffering was so great that he bled from every pore. The mental anguish obviously created horrible physical pain.

That’s the best I can do without using our scripture.

[coolcats]

We believe that after this life, there are different degrees of glory one can attain. At the final judgment a person will be placed in one of these places for eternity. All are better in a physical sense than the current earth on which we live. The highest level is Celestial glory, which is to live in the present of God and Jesus, and this could be equated to heaven.

The middle level is for someone who lived a basically honorable life, but did not accept fully Christ or his gospel. The third level would be for murderers, rapists – the really bad guys. Both of these places may be termed as hell, in the sense that a person is prevented from being in the presence of the Father and his Son. This may be termed damnation since their eternal progress is limited.

You may ask yourself if these places are physically better than the earth on which we now live, what kind of punishment would that be. But would a loving God want to subject his children to physical torment for eternity? Or could the wailing and gnashing of teeth be caused mental torment on the part of a person who knew he had not achieved his highest potential and was subjected to this reality for eternity?

There is also a fourth place – “outer darkness.” That is reserved for a select few, who had a sure witness of Christ, but chose to rebel or betray him. You might be able to think of a few biblical examples of candidates for this place, but I am not willing to judge who would be worthy of such a place. This might be “hell” in the physical sense.

A biblical foundation for the doctrine of three degrees of glory can be found in First Corinthians 15:40-41.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[dreameyes]

Alpha,
I apoligize for my mistake in calling Hell and Outer Darkness the same thing. I would hate for you to think I'm teaching false doctrine of our church or something. I need to think more before I speak because I have heard that before.

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by SergeantL

You have me over a barrel in trying to explain all of this without using our canon, specifically what we call the Doctrine and Covenants, but I will do my best.

.........

That’s the best I can do without using our scripture.

Sarge, thanks. I'm still reading through these and I do have some more questions. Feel free to use the Book of Mormon as well. I just asked that we start with the Bible, since the two apparently do not contradict. I apprecite this post. Unofrtunately I'm in the middle of doing some systems work here and can't quite get my thoughts together right now for a full-fledged response. But if there's Book of Mormon scripture you'd like to use, go ahead. I'll balance it against my Bible.

Also, kinda different vein here, when looking at Biblical scripture regarding these and the coming questions, would it be better suited for me to use the KJV? I think I read on one of these threads that the LDS prefer that translation. True?

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by dreameyes

Alpha,
I apoligize for my mistake in calling Hell and Outer Darkness the same thing. I would hate for you to think I'm teaching false doctrine of our church or something. I need to think more before I speak because I have heard that before.

No problem, dream. I understand. I'm just rying to get my arms around some of these differences. We are all human.

[FL_TN_Nana]

Originally Posted by SergeantL

Yes, there is a Hell; however, we do not believe it is a permanent place. Those who do not repent of their sins pay for those sins in Hell and are then released to a reward befitting their overall behavior in this life. Furthermore, Hell is not a literal lake of fire. The mental anguish one suffers in Hell is like a burning fire.
That’s the best I can do without using our scripture.

Sarge, can you give Biblical scripture for this belief? Thank you.