Satan Was always An Evil Spirit in Heaven -And Still Is

[City Of Dreams]

Originally Posted by City Of Dreams

To what I have been told, instead of bowing to God, Lucifer wanted to be bowed by the angels, he wanted to be just like God. But why should he want to choose being (and teaching) evil just to be worshiped? Evil like being bad, hate, kill, destroy, jealousy, cheat, etc. Didn't he want to be like God - (teaching) good, truthful, loyal, caring, loving, etc? Why should the angels bow to him if they know he is not like God so purely good?

And I want to know, did God tell all the angels what are the consequences, like being cast to hell forever, if they go against God? If the angels already know, why would they want to take the risk? Like we are warned if we steal, we'll go to jail, or if we kill, we may even end up electricuted! So most of us won't, very few do. But the angels should know better, that God can see what they do immediately, whereas thieves and killers think they can get away, that nobody may know they did it.

I would like a Christian believer to answer my question, someone like "bjulk". I want answer, not criticisms of Christianity. I am a Christian, and I wish to have an answer to question that someone has asked me before. Hope a good Christian would try to answer. Thanks.

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by gabfest

That's what really makes me wonder if I'am christian or not because I'am a good samaritan but I do not care about your soul if you don't and I have nothing to convince you of. Who cares?
here's hoping people will believe what ever takes to get along.

There's a fatal flaw in this argument, that we don't care about our "souls", and thus... what? We're bound for the place all evil people go to?

First off: if there's no God, then there's no "soul". We are what we are because of demonstrable biochemical and molecular processes that arose in chaotic biochemistry a long time ago, (we know this now, to 7 decimal places of accuracy) but the appearance of first life and it's ability to pass on successive functional improvements (i.e.: advantages) resulted in a predictable and ever-increasing order on up to what you see now.

"Soul" is but a construct of the need for some to acknowledge that there's a God we can give it over to. and yet, we atheists can and do live quite A-OK without it. As in.....

Second: the common (and insulting, and ultra-rude..) Christian assumption and claim that atheists (oh, and us scientists too) are somehow "lesser", or ethically rudderless, and thus mean-spirited and just plain wrong-headed is another Christian ploy to denigrate us all. It's an organized group effort to belittle an entire group of thinking, honest and caring individuals. Us? Evil?

You do know that the most anti-intellectual site on the web, Answers in Genesis, blames the teaching of the Theory of Evolution for pornography, divorce, high cholesterol I'm sure, alcoholism, lying, child abuse, rape, murder and so on. Does any rational thinker not see how stupid that sort of asinine thinking is? And the purposeful lies in their claims? Apparently believers give them a pass on their obscene behavior.

BTW, a recent World Health Organization study merged the data from the countries with the highest standard of living [based on health, education achievements, achievements in science and arts, and Nobel winners] with claimed and practiced levels of Christian religion. And guess what?

The top levels for standard of living? Sweden, Norway, most of northern Europe, Canada, China's new society, etc. Oddly, they also have the least religious society, and the highest levels of religious freedom.

The worst achievers? Second from the bottom was....wait for it....The good Ol' US of A. Way down at the bottom of the chart. We also have the highest claimed levels of practicing Christianity, and the least tolerant in terms of open education.

So... by statistical measurement: strong beliefs in Christianity conflate with significantly reduced achievements in education, arts, science & math, Nobel winners [despite Obama getting the Peace Award for, essentially, what folks hoped he'd accomplish...but... nothing so far ].

You folks are in great company! You rank with the worst achievers and worst-behaved societies in the world, and in fact are almost the worst. Congrats!

And yet, we're evil and ethically rudderless? Soul-less and thus destined for hell? Because we don't happen to care about our non-existent souls? Q: how can you care about a vacuous concept? Tell me.

BTW: in practical matters, apparently none of you devout Christians has met me, huh? The kids I teach (especially about the evils of unthinking, devout religiosity versus the value of simple, logical critical thinking) seem to really like me. They even call me at home sometimes to get some basic assistance on how to approach a problem. Of course, I have to hide my horns and my "666" tattoo first...

Originally Posted by Nea1

Why do you wonder if your a christian? I guess you can believe in a god and not follow a designated religion.

Not just Christians are good Samaritans, being a believer doesn't make you a good person automatically and they dont hold all the cards on being good.. I dont believe in souls.

In fact, they assume their "soul" and beliefs do make them all good people, the best in fact; and yet the history books don't agree at all. Those documented accounts are fraught with too many examples of holier-than-thou Christians warring on entire cultures (The Crusades pop to mind...), of them torturing, raping & pillaging, torching the churches and possessions of innocent spiritual peoples of other "lesser" religions, and not a few "evil, soul-less" atheists, I'm sure.

The mind shudders at the gross hypocrisy of Christianity. And of their blind self image of soul-driven perfection.

[gabfest]

Originally Posted by rifleman

There's a fatal flaw in this argument, that we don't care about our "souls", and thus... what? We're bound for the place all evil people go to?

First off: if there's no God, then there's no "soul". We are what we are because of demonstrable biochemical and molecular processes that arose in chaotic biochemistry a long time ago, (we know this now, to 7 decimal places of accuracy) but the appearance of first life and it's ability to pass on successive functional improvements (i.e.: advantages) resulted in a predictable and ever-increasing order on up to what you see now.

"Soul" is but a construct of the need for some to acknowledge that there's a God we can give it over to. and yet, we atheists can and do live quite A-OK without it. As in.....

Second: the common (and insulting, and ultra-rude..) Christian assumption and claim that atheists (oh, and us scientists too) are somehow "lesser", or ethically rudderless, and thus mean-spirited and just plain wrong-headed is another Christian ploy to denigrate us all. It's an organized group effort to belittle an entire group of thinking, honest and caring individuals. Us? Evil?

You do know that the most anti-intellectual site on the web, Answers in Genesis, blames the teaching of the Theory of Evolution for pornography, divorce, high cholesterol I'm sure, alcoholism, lying, child abuse, rape, murder and so on. Does any rational thinker not see how stupid that sort of asinine thinking is? And the purposeful lies in their claims? Apparently believers give them a pass on their obscene behavior.

BTW, a recent World Health Organization study merged the data from the countries with the highest standard of living [based on health, education achievements, achievements in science and arts, and Nobel winners] with claimed and practiced levels of Christian religion. And guess what?

The top levels for standard of living? Sweden, Norway, most of northern Europe, Canada, China's new society, etc. Oddly, they also have the least religious society, and the highest levels of religious freedom.

The worst achievers? Second from the bottom was....wait for it....The good Ol' US of A. Way down at the bottom of the chart. We also have the highest claimed levels of practicing Christianity, and the least tolerant in terms of open education.

So... by statistical measurement: strong beliefs in Christianity conflate with significantly reduced achievements in education, arts, science & math, Nobel winners [despite Obama getting the Peace Award for, essentially, what folks hoped he'd accomplish...but... nothing so far ].

You folks are in great company! You rank with the worst achievers and worst-behaved societies in the world, and in fact are almost the worst. Congrats!

And yet, we're evil and ethically rudderless? Soul-less and thus destined for hell? Because we don't happen to care about our non-existent souls? Q: how can you care about a vacuous concept? Tell me.

BTW: in practical matters, apparently none of you devout Christians has met me, huh? The kids I teach (especially about the evils of unthinking, devout religiosity versus the value of simple, logical critical thinking) seem to really like me. They even call me at home sometimes to get some basic assistance on how to approach a problem. Of course, I have to hide my horns and my "666" tattoo first...



In fact, they assume their "soul" and beliefs do make them all good people, the best in fact; and yet the history books don't agree at all. Those documented accounts are fraught with too many examples of holier-than-thou Christians warring on entire cultures (The Crusades pop to mind...), of them torturing, raping & pillaging, torching the churches and possessions of innocent spiritual peoples of other "lesser" religions, and not a few "evil, soul-less" atheists, I'm sure.

The mind shudders at the gross hypocrisy of Christianity. And of their blind self image of soul-driven perfection.

your rant is mis-placed and mis-directed but I suspect this was just another chance for your grand-standing. have I ever ask you about your soul? no! really I do not care. and it is an insult to the christians for you to keep calling me a christian. if you would like to know my beliefs ask me otherwise please stop ass u ming you know.

fyi: I do not believe all of human-kind have souls but as long I do what do I care?
for the last time ...I don't care where you go when you die...please stop flattering yourself at my expense.

[rifleman]

Sincere apologies if applicable, gabfest, but I was simply responding to this...

Originally Posted by gabfest

but I do not care about your soul if you don't and I have nothing to convince you of. Who cares?

Apparently I misunderstood your point? (But yes, you did provide me with an entry point for my so-called rant, which does address the oft-claimed criticisms of atheists. And once I get into an argument, why stop?)

Perhaps I'm also a bit hyper-sensitized of late because a relatively new friend of mine, who only recently became aware that I am an atheist, declared that yes, in fact, all atheists ARE ethically bereft, that it absolutely takes a belief in a God to set us all straight, else we'd all (mysteriously I'll add...) be out murdering or pillaging anyone we wanted to in the streets.

I maintain that such uncontrolled behavior might temporarily benefit the unthinking few, (Attila The Hun for example..) but leads inexorably to the ultimate collapse of entire societies, with or without any convenient Godz in command.

So what guides good human behavior? A soul? God? Nope. Common sense and a need to survive is all.

[look3467]

Again, I say you all....believer and none believer alike are missing the point.

Can we not see that we, being separate entities, are separate from the creator and joined to, married to this world?

Can we not see that this world is all about the flesh, that whatever good to come out of it has nothing to do with this world but of the spiritual?

Do we believe that an almighty creator would allow evil to reign within it's kingdom and survive?

Of course not, for evil is only in the realm of time, time being here only on earth.

The power for evil rests within each one of us as does the power to do good.

If one could take oneself out of this worlds existence (Time) then evil would cease to exist, for evil potential is only present in the time frame, earth.

Now, having said that, what power have we to contribute, as separate unwilling participants (gods) to the condition in which we have been subjected to?

Absolutely nothing! For we are the created!

But........the Creator does!


And He/she, the creator has performed, as a man of the flesh, power over our stated condition, as God almighty to conquer death and hell for all humanity as only one lost soul,(singular) rather than all of us collectively. (Lost souls) Plural)

So, Satan is basically just the oppressor, in the time frame of the physical,
which set up the conditions to where we must make judgment calls for the good or, fall to its beckoning.

Jesus is stated as being tempted by the devil for 40th days and nights.

Why suppose that was so? As man of the flesh (son of man) He had all the opportunities as we have to succumb to the will of the flesh, to make of this world our kingdom if He but just bow to it, as we all do.

But He, also being the son of God, had power over the flesh to where this kingdom mattered not (Kingdom of the flesh), chose rather to become obediant to the kingdom that was not of this world (spiritual) and conquer it in our stead.

That is why, we, in Jesus have power over the flesh, over Satan, the devil or anything of this world, for when we are given to God in Jesus, we are no longer members of this world but of the kingdom of God.

Being members of the kingdom of God this world has no power over us, save death of the physical only.

When the conditions of this world, the worlds oppressors, causes us to look up ward for comfort, for peace, we shall see the light of Gods love and find within us the ability to overcome.

When we get to that state, all this talk about Satan and demons have no place in our conversation, for we are not of this world, yet are in this world for a short time.

Jesus said "Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

If God should keep us from evil, wouldn't you suppose God is also the adversary?

Adversary in the sense that God instituted the means by which we are tested, such as is the the story of Adam and Eve tested by the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The point! That in the testing we would find the creation of love, the birth of love within ourselves as the beginning of life......one which shall not die but live on after this one.

So, dear friends, believers and unbelievers alike, whether you believe or not, the power to conquer is not within ourselves to do, but until first the power of God resides within us.

Be it as you will, the power is given us to make a choice!

From the very beginning, the power of choice is evident in the following verse:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

To Sin, therefore shall be to our desire that we should rule over it, and thus be taken by it to our demise.

But wait! Here this: Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

If we choose to rely only on what is all that this world has to offer, then we are actually bowing down to it, making the world our god.

Blessings, AJ