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Ahhh! This explains a lot about you! So then... there's never any point in you ever "debating" with us, is there? You must only come on line to harass or dismiss us, never to reconsider our position.
Quite the debating approach!
I find this interesting, the terms your using; debating with " Us", harass and dismiss " Us." Your accusation suggest that I am targeting your particular group; which is not true, just another false accusation; whatever your group is, I am not targeting them or harassing them. I do not target groups here, I hold no intrest in doing that. Although I am not in a group myself, I don't go after groupies and I welcome debate with anyone.
I am an easy person to debate with; but when I am presented with deception and false accusation and disrespect, I admit that I can get quite tuff in a debate then, because I do not like such behavior.
Interesting that Jesus himself taught that he was written about in the Old Testement; In Luke 24:44," These are my words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the " Law of Moses " and the Prophets and the Psams must be fulfilled." So even Jesus states that he is mentioned in the " Torah", the Psalms and by the Prophets.
And I think that settles the matter in my mind, once Jesus has said something, it matters little what others say about the same subject.
You do know that in today's time, there's a diagnosis for Jesus claiming he is mentioned in the Torah: it's called pathological narcissism.
By the way, I wrote the US Constituion, and the Magna Carta? Yep, that was me, too.
You do know that in today's time, there's a diagnosis for Jesus claiming he is mentioned in the Torah: it's called pathological narcissism.
By the way, I wrote the US Constituion, and the Magna Carta? Yep, that was me, too.
No, its called Duet. 18:15-19, a clear reference to Jesus, as was Isaiah 52:13-15. And there are many Old Testement references to him, Jesus said it himself. So with me it is a matter of what Jesus said, verses what some synics of today are saying; its academic in my view. In the book of Ezra he is the nail in the Holy Place, but one has to understand that symbolism.
I never try and convince people of symbolism , I simply look to increase my own understanding of it. And I never try to counter sarcasm with reason, because sarcasm is unreasonable. I think this is just a real part of Jesus blinding the understanding of men, even from his own existence.
Which is interesting; this pathology of Christ, as he obeys his Father God's wishes.
Deuteronomy 18:15, Moses is speaking. “A prophet from your midst, from amongst your brothers like myself will the Lord your God set up for you - hearken to him.†This commandment, to obey the prophet, is applied by missionaries to Jesus. Missionaries claim that obedience to God requires obedience to Jesus.
The missionary will have to agree, that before we apply this commandment (to obey a prophet) to anyone, we must be sure that this person is indeed a prophet. How can we know if a claimant of prophecy is telling the truth? How does God expect us to examine the credentials of a man who died thousands of years ago?
The answer to this question is quite simple. God gave Moses the authority to decide on questions that may arise in relation to His commandments. God also instructed Moses concerning the appointment of other men, to whom the Jewish people can turn to with their questions about God’s Law. The decision of these men is binding upon the entire nation. In Deuteronomy 13:10, God tells us that the entire nation should participate in the execution of a particular lawbreaker. It is obvious that only a few qualified men were the judges who determined the guilt of this criminal. Yet all of Israel is being commanded by God to kill a man about whom they know very little. But they do know the decision of the religious authorities concerning this man. And that is enough. This is basically all we know about Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and all of the other scriptural prophets. We know that the Jewish religious leadership decided that these men were authentic prophets. And that is all we need to know. And that is all we need to know about the fellow from Nazareth. The Jewish religious leadership of his time did not recognize in him any of the qualities of an authentic prophet. If we are going to disregard the decision of these men when it comes to Jesus, then there is no reason to accept it when it comes to the prophets of Jewish scripture
52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?
52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.
No, its called Duet. 18:15-19, a clear reference to Jesus, as was Isaiah 52:13-15. And there are many Old Testement references to him, Jesus said it himself. So with me it is a matter of what Jesus said, verses what some synics of today are saying; its academic in my view. In the book of Ezra he is the nail in the Holy Place, but one has to understand that symbolism.
I never try and convince people of symbolism , I simply look to increase my own understanding of it. And I never try to counter sarcasm with reason, because sarcasm is unreasonable. I think this is just a real part of Jesus blinding the understanding of men, even from his own existence.
Which is interesting; this pathology of Christ, as he obeys his Father God's wishes.
Mickiel, there are no references to Jesus in the Torah (5 Boook of Moses). There may be references to Jesus in the OT, but that's not a Jewish text - it's a bastardized translation of a translation of the Torah and holds no merit in the eyes of a Jew. I could care less what is in your OT. Mention Jesus 42 times in there if you want. The OT isn't the Torah. So it's your business what's in the OT. But until you can read Hebrew, please don't go telling me what's in the Torah.
Walter, Deut 18:15 seems to be a favorite of these missionaries. I just debated the same point on another forum this week. It's classic mistranslation (in this case, insertion) by the Greeks to fulfill their "agenda." These missionaries will go to all lengths to try to legitimize their OT and it's content. Let them. It's not our book, and it's irrelevant to the Jew what the KJV or any other translation of a translation says.
Mickiel, there are no references to Jesus in the Torah (5 Boook of Moses). There may be references to Jesus in the OT, but that's not a Jewish text - it's a bastardized translation of a translation of the Torah and holds no merit in the eyes of a Jew. I could care less what is in your OT. Mention Jesus 42 times in there if you want. The OT isn't the Torah. So it's your business what's in the OT. But until you can read Hebrew, please don't go telling me what's in the Torah.
Well I can understand this , I don't have a Torah, but I think I'll get me one; I have a Quran. And there are references to Jesus in the Old Testement that I have; I use the New Scofield study bible . Now I understand the first five books of the Old Testement is considered the Torah, and your point of that not being a Jewish text is understood; so I cannot say that Jesus is refered to in the Jewish Torah, but he is in the Scofield translation.
Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d.
While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.
... (T)he Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws. For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews.
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