Jesus was FAR different than most people think! (satanic, origin, Roman)
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The existence of Jesus has been accepted by history for centuries. IT is the skeptic's burden to overturn that presumption and prove that Jesus didn't exist!
Be that as it may the skeptics have a way of repeating the same notes with great verity and so it seems as though they have quite a bit of evidence. Let's examine the documentation more closely.
[SIZE=4]I. The Secular Sources and How Historians View Them.[/SIZE]
A. Several Extra-Biblical records
1)Skeptics will often alledge that "no extra biblical evidence for Jesus' existence exists." This is far from the truth. All of these following historians, of first and early second century, mention Jesus of Nazareth as a historical figure who existed in the first century CE, or they mention Christ.
* Thallus (c. 50-75AD)
*Phlegon (First century)
* Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)
* Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120)
* Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)
* Galen (various writings, c.150)
* Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).
* Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)
* Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)
*Lucian (Second century)
*Numenius (Second cent.)
*Galerius (Second Cent.) No one ever questioned Jesus' existence until the 19th century
Sarah
You lack wisdom so you have nothing. You cannot comprehend or understand biblical history with just a bit of knowledge, also you need to learn about the historic Jesus first, then you may grasp, absorb and understand the Man/God.
Sarah
Well at least we know that the Bible says that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and not Nazareth as you said.....and you have the sauce to tell us to learn the Bible!! Oiy vez!!
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Originally Posted by sarah888
[b]It is self-explanatory that if the village of Nazareth existed in the time of Jesus, then it had to come into existence before his birth.
Sarah
...but it didn't exist at the alleged time of Jesus. That's what we are telling you but you ignore anything that doesn't fit your bronze age mytholgy.
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Originally Posted by sarah888
... the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .
Tacitus is repeating stories he heard about Christians who followed a 'Christ'.
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Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion.
...and you notice that Tacitus wrote....
..."he is said to have suffered....."
Don't you see it Sarah. This is not something that Tacitus is confirming, it is some story that he is repeating, that's why he is saying ..."he is said to have suffered....."
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This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus.
See it again??? "....said to have...." In other words Tacitus is reporting it as a CLAIM
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Originally Posted by sarah888
Historical sources will show that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah of both history and prophecy.
He isn't the prophecied Jewish Messiah.because he didn't fulfil the Jewish prophecies.
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President Abraham Lincoln was an agnostic until he reached the age of forty.
...and Cat Stevens was a Christian until he became a Muslim. ....so what exactly is your point??
Sarah, it must be clear to all that you are not here to rationally discuss the subject. You do not respond to questions or rebuttals of your claims, you just continue to spam with apologist copy and paste. As I told you somewhere else, it makes for much better discussion if you are able to discuss IN YOUR OWN WORD WITH SENTENCES CONSTRUCTED OUT OF YOUR OWN HEAD...rather than this constant apologist tripe that has been debunked time and time again.
Christ's crucifixion occurred about 2000 years ago. This is documented by Roman, Jewish, and Greek historians. However, the Quran denies the crucifixion occurred. The Quran goes against known, recorded history. This article discusses Christ's historical crucifixion
Skeptics will often alledge that "no extra biblical evidence for Jesus' existence exists." This is far from the truth. All of these following historians, of first and early second century, mention Jesus of Nazareth as a historical figure who existed in the first century CE, or they mention Christ.
Can I really be bothered to take the time and energy to debunk all this yet again....Nah!!!
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Talmudic References written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses...
You don't even know what the Talmud says about your man-god do you. It says that he was the bastard son of a Roman soldier, conceived during menstruation who practised witchcraft and was hanged. So, as you are saying THAT is from eye-witnesses, it must be true...right? You see Sarah, that's the problem of quoting 'Lying for Jesus' websites without actually checking out what they claim.
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No one ever questioned Jesus' existence until the 19th century
You don't say?!? Well let's have a look shall we?
Celsus, in late 2nd century said that the Gospels were fiction based on myths. He said.... "Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"
Bardesanes, in mid 2nd century, denied that Jesus was physical.
Minucius Felix, in mid 2nd century, explicitly denies the incarnation and crucifixion. "Men who have died cannot become gods, because a god cannot die; nor can men who are born (become gods) ... Why, I pray, are gods not born today, if such have ever been born?"
Tatian, in later 2nd century, compared Christianity with pagan mythology and wrote:
“Compare you own stories with our narratives. Take a look at your own records and accept us merely on the grounds that we too tell stories”
Dionysius of Corinth, in late 2nd century, claimed Christians were changing and faking his own letters.
Caius, claimed the truth about the Jesus stories was falsified from the late 2nd century.
Porphyry, in late 3rd century, claimed the Gospels were invented : "... the evangelists were inventors – not historians”
Julian, in the 4th century, claimed Jesus was spurious and counterfeit : "why do you worship this spurious son...a counterfeit son", "you have invented your new kind of sacrifice "
...and you claim that nobody questioned the gospels until the 19th century. Balderdash!
Can I really be bothered to take the time and energy to debunk all this yet again....Nah!!!
You don't even know what the Talmud says about your man-god do you. It says that he was the bastard son of a Roman soldier, conceived during menstruation who practised witchcraft and was hanged. So, as you are saying THAT is from eye-witnesses, it must be true...right? You see Sarah, that's the problem of quoting 'Lying for Jesus' websites without actually checking out what they claim.
You don't say?!? Well let's have a look shall we?
Celsus, in late 2nd century said that the Gospels were fiction based on myths. He said.... "Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"
Bardesanes, in mid 2nd century, denied that Jesus was physical.
Minucius Felix, in mid 2nd century, explicitly denies the incarnation and crucifixion. "Men who have died cannot become gods, because a god cannot die; nor can men who are born (become gods) ... Why, I pray, are gods not born today, if such have ever been born?"
Tatian, in later 2nd century, compared Christianity with pagan mythology and wrote:
“Compare you own stories with our narratives. Take a look at your own records and accept us merely on the grounds that we too tell stories”
Dionysius of Corinth, in late 2nd century, claimed Christians were changing and faking his own letters.
Caius, claimed the truth about the Jesus stories was falsified from the late 2nd century.
Porphyry, in late 3rd century, claimed the Gospels were invented : "... the evangelists were inventors – not historians”
Julian, in the 4th century, claimed Jesus was spurious and counterfeit : "why do you worship this spurious son...a counterfeit son", "you have invented your new kind of sacrifice "
...and you claim that nobody questioned the gospels until the 19th century. Balderdash!
"We live on an island surrounded by a sea of ignorance. As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Archibald Wheeler
Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead! The four Gospels
The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels.
Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally.So What About Jesus? So What about the historical Proof?
"We live on an island surrounded by a sea of ignorance. As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Archibald Wheeler
Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead! The four Gospels
The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels.
Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally.So What About Jesus? So What about the historical Proof?
Sarah
So that's your rebuttal to my post is it...yet more copy and past from 'Lying for Jesus' web-sites. You're not very good at this are you? See...how it works is that you made a claim that nobody questioned the existence of your man-god until the 19th century. I rebutted that by showing you that actually, people did question his existence as early as the 2nd and 3rd centuries. What happens now is that you come back with a refutation of my rebuttal - preferably in your own words. Can you do that or can you only copy and paste?
I cannot prove something to someone who refuses to believe it, regardless of evidence. This is because of the sinful nature. We are engaged in a spiritual warfare. You refute all evidence which includes scientific, historic, logic, reason and meaning for us to be here. We all have a meaning and purpose for being here.
Sarah
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