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It was you who sort of skirted it.. perhaps it was merely the wording....
I could be wrong, that's actually happened!
Ah! Yes, I see. No, Pascal's Wager is: Christians are either right or wrong, therefor you should be Christian because if you're wrong about Atheism being correct, you spend eternity in Hell and if you're right about Atheism being correct, then you're no worse off.
My posit was that he is either right or wrong. If he's right, he should warn others and we should be grateful to have such a passionate protector. And if he's wrong, it doesn't matter if he warns others as his intentions are done with love and caring. There is room for respect for both the religious and irreligious in this world, I believe. If the religious really believe they are correct, then the real lack of respect would be not engaging others. As long as the religious do what they do out of love and concern, I can treat the actions with the same amount of love and concern.
Pascal's wager is a personal adjustment of belief, while my posit was merely an acceptance of another's belief being different from my own.
I believe that truth is difficult to find, but that there is a universal truth. I respect those who seek it out.
My religious roomate, who attends a whole bunch of bible studies and other religious get togethers, left out a piece of paper that reads...
Name five people you peraonally know are unsaved.
I was the second one listed.
Firstly, unsaved from what? God? Death? The "afterlife"...whatever that is?....
Just bask in quiet gratitude.
From those people I have known who have proclaimed that they were "saved," I have to say the "unsaved" has to be a better crowd of folks if only because they are not so puffed up with arrogance and vanity as to presume with their unsavedness on others.
The humility of the unsaved is a model for humanity.
Let me preface this comment by saying I'm not a particularly religious person...but I don't really understand those of the 'saved' who go around discussing the state of everyone else's soul. No one can truly know what's in another person's heart and mind. That's up to God, assuming there is one.
What's the point of being right about these sorts of "big" issues if you don't get to gloat about being on the winning team? Isn't that the point of religion these days?
FWIW, there's absolutely no source anywhere in the bible to support this claim quoted above. Sure, it may be a belief of modern day Chrstians (in their "New Testaments"), but there's no bible source to back up this claim. "Original sin" has absolutely no foundation to be found anywhere in the bible. It's rubbish.
And in case anybody's interested, us Jews do not think athiests, Chrstians, Buddhists or anybody else has to be "saved" to gain a share in the world to come. Live a moral life, and you're all set (the only benefit of following a reputible religion is to give you some fence posts to know what a "moral life" means. But in reality, most of us are born with pretty good moral compasses, so just giving it your best shot will likely do the trick).
I agree, Flipflop - the concept of Original Sin is not explicitly stated in the Genesis Account, and nor was it a working principle among the other Biblical writers. Only with the advent of the Greek New Testament, and the later refinements of Augustine, did the simple story of "crime and punishment" (just one of a series in Genesis 1-11 leading up to the choice of Abraham as God's special focus and care, rather than all of humanity as previously) become a theological dogma of the Church - highlighting the Christian's claim that a "Savior" (or "Messiah") is needed spiritually, rather than it's original import: physically, as a savior of the nation from its enemies (though, to be fair, pre-Christian Judaism had several competing ideas of what [and how many] the "Annointed One" would be and do. Add to that a reinterpretation of YHWH God's statement that anyone eating the tree would die from a physical death to a spiritual death (thus furthering the idea that Jesus was needed to "enliven" the "dead" soul - another non-Biblical concept), and the concept of Original Sin began to take on an importance far beyond it's original thesis.
Quite a complex system of beliefs was created out of this elaborate misreading of the Genesis Account, this allegorizing of certain elements in the story (thanks, Alexandria!) - this picking and choosing of elements in a story that did not comport with the latest Hellenistic ideas of a soul that lived beyond death. As Flipflop says - Original Sin may be a fundamental doctrine of Christianity, but it is far from Biblical.
If it were any other way, one wonders why the Mosaic Code was ever given in the first place as "an everlasting covenant". How quickly these important words were forgotten by interpreters who claimed the Divine Authority of Scripture! How convenient to be able to jump back and forth between a plain-sense reading of the text and a Philo-inspired allegorical reading that denied much of what Scripture and Tradition teached.
The real issue at stake in this thread, though, seems to be in the manner in which the roomate proselytized his faith. Rather than a straight talk, his approach was cowardly and passive-aggressive. Nobody likes sneaky people, as far as I'm aware. We prefer a little bit more honesty and respect in such matters, rather than petty notes left lying around. If the roomate thought his method would be effective - it obviously was not.
Ah! Yes, I see. No, Pascal's Wager is: Christians are either right or wrong, therefor you should be Christian because if you're wrong about Atheism being correct, you spend eternity in Hell and if you're right about Atheism being correct, then you're no worse off. .....
That is certainly a different approach to Pascal's Gambit than is usually seen here. It is usually stated in the context of believe in God because if you're wrong there is no harm, but if you are right you avoid eternal damnation. The fallacy in that recitation is that belief is not a choice. It either exists or it doesn't.
Not, your phrasing of the Wager, using the phrasing "should be Christian" implies that a person joining a Christian Church has hedged his bets, regardless of his internal belief. Right?
What's the point of being right about these sorts of "big" issues if you don't get to gloat about being on the winning team? Isn't that the point of religion these days?
Many DO seem to gloat about their special status - that's for sure.
I think a big part of it is is our intrinsic desire to feel as if we belong, and especially to feel as if we belong to, or are privy to, some special universal secret. The very possession of this "secret" and the ability to disseminate it at one's will seems to be a powerful and satisfying motivation behind many "fire-and-brimstone" believers. Just think - they believe that the very fate of other people's souls is in their hands, and entirely dependent on whether they reach out to that person. Nietzsche would be proud of them and their will to power.
I agree, Flipflop - the concept of Original Sin is not explicitly stated in the Genesis Account, and nor was it a working principle among the other Biblical writers. Only with the advent of the Greek New Testament, and the later refinements of Augustine, did the simple story of "crime and punishment" (just one of a series in Genesis 1-11 leading up to the choice of Abraham as God's special focus and care, rather than all of humanity as previously) become a theological dogma of the Church - highlighting the Christian's claim that a "Savior" (or "Messiah") is needed spiritually, rather than it's original import: physically, as a savior of the nation from its enemies (though, to be fair, pre-Christian Judaism had several competing ideas of what [and how many] the "Annointed One" would be and do. Add to that a reinterpretation of YHWH God's statement that anyone eating the tree would die from a physical death to a spiritual death (thus furthering the idea that Jesus was needed to "enliven" the "dead" soul - another non-Biblical concept), and the concept of Original Sin began to take on an importance far beyond it's original thesis.
Quite a complex system of beliefs was created out of this elaborate misreading of the Genesis Account, this allegorizing of certain elements in the story (thanks, Alexandria!) - this picking and choosing of elements in a story that did not comport with the latest Hellenistic ideas of a soul that lived beyond death. As Flipflop says - Original Sin may be a fundamental doctrine of Christianity, but it is far from Biblical.
If it were any other way, one wonders why the Mosaic Code was ever given in the first place as "an everlasting covenant". How quickly these important words were forgotten by interpreters who claimed the Divine Authority of Scripture! How convenient to be able to jump back and forth between a plain-sense reading of the text and a Philo-inspired allegorical reading that denied much of what Scripture and Tradition teached.
The real issue at stake in this thread, though, seems to be in the manner in which the roomate proselytized his faith. Rather than a straight talk, his approach was cowardly and passive-aggressive. Nobody likes sneaky people, as far as I'm aware. We prefer a little bit more honesty and respect in such matters, rather than petty notes left lying around. If the roomate thought his method would be effective - it obviously was not.
Good post. I would add that modern day Protestant and Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity simply does not understand nor appreciate just how much of what they believe stems directly from the Roman Catholic Church.
Back to our regularly scheduled program.
Last edited by Fullback32; 07-24-2012 at 08:58 AM..
What can it hurt?
If the OP ever made it known he was not interested, yet the room mate prayed in this manner anyway, that is essentially black magic.
Oh good grief
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