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I asked one of my devout Christian friends at work this question in 2000, and he believed the early writers of the bible did not fully understand what their god wanted them to do. They were sometimes mistaken.
In other words, he did not take the bible as the literal truth.
He was a very intelligent, highly respected worker who advanced to a high position because of the excellent work he had done. Every time we had lunch, he always said grace before his meal. Later that year, he drowned when swimming at Virginia Beach.
I don't know why they have to hide from the truth. Just another way to rationalize the atrocities.
Heck, The Isrealites were doing what bronze age tribes did in those times. Like all the other tribes, they thought that "God was on their side", and when they lost a battle or something bad happened the it was "God punishing them." I don't think they ever thought they lost because "God was on the other team's side."
As a non believer it is actually easy to see how these atrocities occurred in those times. Not a single hoop to jump through to arrive at a logical conclusion. No mental gymnastics needed. Just bronze age people being cruel to other bronze age people.
As a non believer it is actually easy to see how these atrocities occurred in those times. Not a single hoop to jump through to arrive at a logical conclusion. No mental gymnastics needed. Just bronze age people being cruel to other bronze age people.
If you are correct (and perhaps you are), for what purpose would the OP create this thread and attempt to filter his question through 21st century lenses?
I believe that 3300 years ago, Moses did indeed lead his people to kill a bunch of Midianites (keep in mind, 24,000 Jews had just died a few weeks earlier because of the Midianites). So what is the relevance of this event to today's times, especially as the OP repeatedly says he is using the responses of the Jews in the Judaism forum to help him formulate his opinion on the Jews of today?
And what statement does it make on any of you who are unwilling to call the OP out for his obvious nefarious intent? This is not a touchy feely world we live in. It was in some of our own lifetimes that one bad guy in Germany caused the death of 12 million people, that also started with a few intellectual discussions on the history of a certain people.
Your assumption is obvious: if the Jews are unwilling to throw out their Torah due to this passage about the Midianites, then we must still be capable of the same horrific violence even to this very day.
That is not my assumption.
That is the conclusion I have drawn from what you and others have said.
No, I'm not being a smart aleck. I want you to explain what is actually going on when you state this euphamism. If Christians want people to "feel something with their heart" then they should at least have the courtesy to explain what they mean by that phrase.
You dodged the question last time I asked it. Do you not know what you mean? At least take a stab at it.
eddie, you made my head do a little tilt when I read this because I'm pretty sure I answered your question head on in my second paragraph when I responded to you the first time. I was brief, but I think you just didn't understand it.
The same way you feel an emotion, even though you can't see it, and you know your heart pumps blood throughout your body (I am a nurse major so I'm aware of the body), you feel things in your heart. There's a sense of inner knowing, getting an understanding of something that even though you didn't get any feedback as to it's mechanism from your five senses and what you know to be true seems to defy logic and the 5 senses, that feeling. And it doesn't come from preconceived notions, or brainwashing, or from what has been deemed scientifically proven (what is now accepted as fact first originated from a theory, a supposition) that.
Seek. BUt some people only want to take things at face value. It happens amongst the religious and the non-religious alike, a deadening of the 6th senses, the one that connects us to a world and perception beyond this one.
I know I answered your question in my initial post. I'm doing it again. But I feel it will fall on deaf ears. Will you prove me wrong?
What you are failing to realize is that the Midianites were the cause of thousands dying of Israel. The land God gave to Abraham and thus to Israel is owned by God and He can give it to whomsoever He wills. The Midianites were worshipping Baal-Peor, a false god. God could not have these people living in the same land as the Israelites when they went into the promised land.
What you also fail to realize is that all the Midianites who died were eventually going to die anyway. God just hurried up the day of their death. He will bring them all back to life and give them all immortality and incorruption due to Christ dying for them. None of them will be upset with what God did, so why do you ascribe impropriety to God?
The Israelites themselves were sacrificing children to idols.
I believe that 3300 years ago, Moses did indeed lead his people to kill a bunch of Midianites (keep in mind, 24,000 Jews had just died a few weeks earlier because of the Midianites). So what is the relevance of this event to today's times, especially as the OP repeatedly says he is using the responses of the Jews in the Judaism forum to help him formulate his opinion on the Jews of today?
With the exception of some select parts of scripture which aid in life wisdom, one could apply the bolded part to the entire Bible.
The Israelites themselves were sacrificing children to idols.
everyone was sacrificing something to an idol and that's when God intervened and said, "What are you doing?" and he asked them to turn away. Numerous times. BUt they slayed the prophets. It was very unusual during that time for people to only have One god. Which is why it is written so that they may know, "O hear O Israel, the Lord God is One". People would often look to the sky, see a bird, and worship. They saw the large fish, and worship, they made gods of clay, attributed behaviors, and worshipped. They saw spirits of the forest and the woods (yes, I feel they exist) and they worshipped. There's a reason he asked them to turn away and many times they did not heed and those who continued on on the Earth said, "see? Obviously I'm still alive so what is the harm?" so then others in their ignorance would look on and say, "True dat!" and they'd follow suit and it would spread like wild fire and everyone would turn to the worship of things that could not see, hear, think, feel, or exist. The world is but a mirror. These people committed these acts to their own destruction and I feel that it was God in his infinite love that tried to guide them away from that. That is what I see repeatedly. I see a loving, but very frustrated and heartbroken God throughout the Old Testament. The way, the truth, and the light continued to make himself known through the prophets and yet I saw people, much like people today in their own way, turning a blind eye for one reason or another. They loved money, they loved fame, they loved their own ego. But I do feel that during THAT time, there was a fairly different level of consciousness at work. The world was still young and the knowledge that we have now, they did not have. When we grow, I feel there is an evolution of universal consciousness and when we move on, we contribute to that development. At this time, no thought is new thought, but everything is compounded. During that time, I feel there was hard-fast and visible consequences for a reason. Much like the jails we have today for those who lack understanding of the law.
Most people don't worry about an adult running into the street. But for children, we put up barricades to keep them from doing so. And if they do so, we put them in time out. I don't know if this falls on deaf ears...but we'll see.
Now in the words of Paul, "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." Note the evolution of behavior. This is during the time when the law becomes written on a person's heart and they come to see the effects of their actions on their own soul.
But that's my line of thinking and what I see when I read the Old Testament and follow through to the new.
Originally Posted by Eusebius What you are failing to realize is that the Midianites were the cause of thousands dying of Israel. The land God gave to Abraham and thus to Israel is owned by God and He can give it to whomsoever He wills. The Midianites were worshipping Baal-Peor, a false god. God could not have these people living in the same land as the Israelites when they went into the promised land.
What you also fail to realize is that all the Midianites who died were eventually going to die anyway. God just hurried up the day of their death. He will bring them all back to life and give them all immortality and incorruption due to Christ dying for them. None of them will be upset with what God did, so why do you ascribe impropriety to God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
The Israelites themselves were sacrificing children to idols.
That was many many many years later.
What does that have to do with what I wrote above?
Hiker, you must be so proud of yourself. After stalking the Judaism forum for the last few months, you have now asked a question with an entirely faulty premise ("would you kill 1000 helpless babies") in order to impugn the Jews in the forum.
Your assumption is obvious: if the Jews are unwilling to throw out their Torah due to this passage about the Midianites, then we must still be capable of the same horrific violence even to this very day.
The logical next step to that assumption: if the Jews are capable of this same type of violence today, perhaps we should pre-empt that and go ahead and rectify the situation with them now.
Hiker, this is the same kind of libel that has lead to the muder of millions of Jews over the last 2,000 years. Nothing new here. But in truth, we know that you will do your worst no matter how we respond to your ridiculous questions and assumptions.
I think I can understand why you would come to this conclusion about Hiker's motives . . . but I have to disagree. I think his focus is on the current acceptance of a God who would order such atrocities . . . not blaming the descendants of those who carried them out. It is the acceptance of such a God that is incomprehensible and unconscionable in this day and age. It reveals a lack of awareness or consciousness raising that is thought to be part and parcel of human civilization and progress. I frankly cannot understand ANYONE accepting, worshiping or claiming to love such a God, period . . . for ANY REASON.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-04-2013 at 09:47 PM..
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