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Science proves that snakes cannot speak, large wooden boats like Noah's cannot float, and bushes don't burn for no reason. If these are proven impossible, along with many other OT and NT events, can anything be believed to have happened?
I think this might be the part where someone posts about miracles....
That's been a topic for debate and questioning by religious scholars, historians, ethicists, etc. since August of 1945. Questioning things serve a purpose: it's how we learn.
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Last edited by stargazzer; 03-05-2013 at 07:46 PM..
There can be NO REASON that a God worthy of love and worship would EVER order such an atrocity
So you now pretend to know enough to almost be a god yourself. I have pointed out before that you have no evidence there even is a god - but you here pretend not only to know there is one but to know its motivations - designs - plans - and mind. You over inflate yourself even beyond previous standards. One wonders how high one can build ones own pedastal before it cracks and falls.
As many theists have rushed to point out to me in the past - even if there is a god we can not presume to know what it does or why. For example when we take a small child - and I have had this experience myself - to the doctor for its inoculatations and it gets the painful jabs the child will often look at you in a "How can you perform this awful thing on me - how could you!". It is hearth breaking - I can tell you as a father myself.
The child is too young to understand why we performed the horrible act. WE know we did it for good reasons - for the greater good of the child - and because the alternatives are worse. The child can not understand this.
Similarly - were a god to order what you declare to be an "atrocity" you are the child presuming to know all there is to know and judging your parent in that light. You simply have no idea why your god would perform this act or demand it be performed. _That_ is the premise of the OP and this thread I feel.
You rail long and hard against what you preceive as arrogance in other posters on these forums - but by presuming to know the mind - intentions - and designs of a god that you can not even begin to evidenc the existence of you appear to be intent on becoming exactly what you claim to hate.
This is the kind of rationalization I would NOT have expected from you, Wood . . . despite the fact that you are Muslim and it is consistent with what we know of radical Muslims even today. There can be NO REASON that a God worthy of love and worshipwould EVER order such an atrocity . . . or any similar atrocity, period! If our values and sensibilities have not progressed to understand THAT . . . at a minimum . . . we are in worse shape as a species and people than I thought we were. If ANY of us (let alone a majority) can honestly worship such a God . . . there is not much hope for us at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
So you now pretend to know enough to almost be a god yourself. I have pointed out before that you have no evidence there even is a god - but you here pretend not only to know there is one but to know its motivations - designs - plans - and mind. You over inflate yourself even beyond previous standards. One wonders how high one can build ones own pedastal before it cracks and falls.
Calm down. Monumentus . . . no need for such hyperbole. I highlighted the pertinent phrase that belies all your concerns about arrogance, usurpation of God's motivations, etc.,etc. . . . a "God worthy of love and worship." You do seem overly preoccupied with my pedestal and status. I assert no authority and claim no pedestal or superiority so it intrigues me that you so consistently perceive such issues as relevant to this forum. Do you fancy that I somehow threaten what YOU perceive as YOUR rightful status and pedestal??? Rest assured I have no intention or desire to do so.
Quote:
As many theists have rushed to point out to me in the past - even if there is a god we can not presume to know what it does or why. For example when we take a small child - and I have had this experience myself - to the doctor for its inoculatations and it gets the painful jabs the child will often look at you in a "How can you perform this awful thing on me - how could you!". It is hearth breaking - I can tell you as a father myself.
The child is too young to understand why we performed the horrible act. WE know we did it for good reasons - for the greater good of the child - and because the alternatives are worse. The child can not understand this.
Similarly - were a god to order what you declare to be an "atrocity" you are the child presuming to know all there is to know and judging your parent in that light. You simply have no idea why your god would perform this act or demand it be performed. _That_ is the premise of the OP and this thread I feel.
Thank you for explaining these things to me, Monumentus. I appreciate you taking the time to do so from your pedestal of higher knowledge. This is definitely one of the many preconceptions about God that are held by many people. I however, do not subscribe to them . . . having met MY God personally. I could never want or maintain a relationship with any God who DID order such atrocities as detailed in the OT.
Quote:
You rail long and hard against what you preceive as arrogance in other posters on these forums - but by presuming to know the mind - intentions - and designs of a god that you can not even begin to evidenc the existence of you appear to be intent on becoming exactly what you claim to hate.
I appreciate this critique. Apparently you are not alone as No Capo felt similarly. I will do my best to correct any such misperceptions of me. Thanks.
Do you have any foundation for your claims? Simply saying it is all make believe does not make it so.
Nor does saying it is true make it so. That is one of the problems with the theists, they think that only they are entitled to their say so, no others are. And they wonder why some loath them.
I highlighted the pertinent phrase that belies all your concerns about arrogance, usurpation of God's motivations, etc.,etc. . . . a "God worthy of love and worship."
Again you presume to know more than you can know. For the reasons I already laid out. Unless you know all the reasons and motivations why such a god would order such an act you can not know if this god is any more or less "worthy of love and worship" than a god who would not order or condone such an act. There could even conceivably be reasons and motivations for such an act that mean the choice makes such a character MORE "worthy of love and worship" for all you know.
It is this pretence that you could speak for such an entity that belies your opinion of yourself. You declare there could be "no reasons" as if you a mere human _could_ know the reasons such an entity might or might not do such a thing - just like as I said - the child that does not understand why you would drag it to a doctor and inflict torture upon it.
You simply do not know this however and I think it worth pointing out on such a thread anyone who pretends to. Of course none of this is MY problem per se given you can not even show such a being exists _at all_ let alone that you "met" it or "know" it or have the first idea whats its motivations and influences might be.
Calm down. Monumentus . . . no need for such hyperbole. I highlighted the pertinent phrase that belies all your concerns about arrogance, usurpation of God's motivations, etc.,etc. . . . a "God worthy of love and worship." You do seem overly preoccupied with my pedestal and status. I assert no authority and claim no pedestal or superiority so it intrigues me that you so consistently perceive such issues as relevant to this forum. Do you fancy that I somehow threaten what YOU perceive as YOUR rightful status and pedestal??? Rest assured I have no intention or desire to do so.
Thank you for explaining these things to me, Monumentus. I appreciate you taking the time to do so from your pedestal of higher knowledge. This is definitely one of the many preconceptions about God that are held by many people. I however, do not subscribe to them . . . having met MY God personally. I could never want or maintain a relationship with any God who DID order such atrocities as detailed in the OT.
I appreciate this critique. Apparently you are not alone as No Capo felt similarly. I will do my best to correct any such misperceptions of me. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
Stick to the topic thanks.
You spend so much time grousing about me and my pedestal attitude and beliefs . . . I thought that pedestals was the topic.
Quote:
Again you presume to know more than you can know. For the reasons I already laid out. Unless you know all the reasons and motivations why such a god would order such an act you can not know if this god is any more or less "worthy of love and worship" than a god who would not order or condone such an act. There could even conceivably be reasons and motivations for such an act that mean the choice makes such a character MORE "worthy of love and worship" for all you know.
This is silly. Of course I KNOW what I would consider worthy of love and worship! I speak for no one else, Monumentus . . . as you presume to do.
Quote:
It is this pretence that you could speak for such an entity that belies your opinion of yourself. You declare there could be "no reasons" as if you a mere human _could_ know the reasons such an entity might or might not do such a thing - just like as I said - the child that does not understand why you would drag it to a doctor and inflict torture upon it.
I have no pretenses. I am what I appear to be and I believe what I say I do. No God I would consider worthy of love and worship would ever do such things for ANY reason. Is that clearer to you?
Quote:
You simply do not know this however and I think it worth pointing out on such a thread anyone who pretends to. Of course none of this is MY problem per se given you can not even show such a being exists _at all_ let alone that you "met" it or "know" it or have the first idea whats its motivations and influences might be.
I have no responsibility to show to you or anyone else what I KNOW to be true . . . though I have tried to provide a complete witness so you can decide for yourself why I do. You can judge it as pretense all you like . . . that is your prerogative. But it speaks more about YOUR predilections than mine. I pretend nothing.
Nor does saying it is true make it so. That is one of the problems with the theists, they think that only they are entitled to their say so, no others are. And they wonder why some loath them.
The difference is we do have a basis for our beliefs. We don't just follow Christ via wishful thinking.
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