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I was actually going to post this in the thread about churches not blessing gay marriages because this story applies there ... but since I can't, I'm making a new thread.
Here's the rub: I've been around long enough to know how Christians are constantly complaining about how persecuted they are. This mainly comes from trivial things like not being able to display massive Christian crosses on a war memorial representing fallen soldiers of multiple different faiths.
The big "outrage" among Christians lately is this fear that churches will be forced to perform ceremonies for gay couples. And while the Christians are wringing their hands over that molehill-to-mountain problem, Christians are busy doing the REAL persecution:
The Arizona Legislature gave final approval Thursday evening to legislation that allows business owners asserting their religious beliefs to refuse service to gays, drawing backlash from Democrats who called the proposal "state-sanctioned discrimination" and an embarrassment.
Similar "religious protection" legislation has been introduced in Ohio, Mississippi, Idaho, South Dakota, Kansas, Tennessee, and Oklahoma, but Arizona's plan is the only one that has passed. The efforts are stalled in Idaho, Ohio, and Kansas.
Yeah, it would seem just the OPPOSITE is happening; not only do churches not have to perform gay weddings, religious people don't even have to serve gays in their businesses or even sell things to them.
What have I been saying on this forum since I arrived? I said that Christians will NOT stop with merely banning gay marriage. They're going to do everything they can to make being homosexual a crime. Even if it means using religion to encourage bigotry, discrimination, and hatred throughout the land using the force of law.
I just find it angering that Christians whine and moan about being persecuted - but here is an example of REAL persecution, ladies and gentlemen, which means I am going to positively SLAM the next Christian who moans about being persecuted. Even at the risk of getting myself banned, if needs be. Because I'm sick of it.
And it's not just stopping with Arizona. As you can see from the story, lots of states are proposing the same kinds of bills. You see, the thing is, no one has to PROVE they are religious when they haul some poor gay person out of their store. They just have to be a bigot, and they can just "claim" they're doing it because of their religion even though they're just doing it because they don't like gays. At least the blue states are smart enough not to pass it, but we'll see about the stalled red states in the midwest.
Why do we need laws like this? In a nation that lauds and champions freedom and screams it from the rooftops, why do we have laws like this that are inherently UNfree? The Democrats are right - this IS an embarrassment because the world is watching.
Just as a fair warning to Christians, anyone who comes to this thread and tries to defend this law? Heh heh, well, I really hope you're girded well with the armor of righteousness because you'll need every last atom of it. Trust me.
Last edited by Shirina; 02-21-2014 at 09:38 AM..
Reason: My first post was kicked out for being gay.
Well you know we're not in Nero's Rome getting comfy quarters in the Colosseum and then baskng on the sands with bustling wildlife but I'd say the zeitgeist is truly not accepting the status quo of Christianity nor for that matter all of organized religion from a particular quarter. Question is what kind of change is wanted? What are the critical attacks for? get the shop in order? Ridding the shops? Organized religion today is dealing with an attacking, offensive push. Understandable considering the new multi-belief systems coming on. We know the medieval is gone. Yet when I look at the situation I'm not sure of the motivation.
The big "outrage" among Christians lately is this fear that churches will be forced to perform ceremonies for gay couples.
Shirina, probably all religions have congregations that are very much opposed to gay marriage.
Why not go to the Judaism forum and ask the Orthodox Jews how they would feel if their congregations were "forced to perform ceremonies for gay couples"
This is from the Huffington Post:
"Views on same-sex marriage among non-Christian religions vary. Among Jews, two of the three major Jewish denominations, Reform and Conservative, allow same-sex marriages. The Reconstructionist movement also allows gay marriages. But each group lets rabbis opt-out of officiating same-sex ceremonies. The Orthodox Union, the major Orthodox Jewish body in the United States, has opposed gay marriage.
Positions also range among Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. Most mosques do not allow same-sex marriages, and a high-ranking cleric at Egypt's Al-Azhar University, one of Islam's most respected schools, recently declared gay marriage to be against the faith. But organizations such as Muslims for Progressive Values, which has a network of LGBT-friendly mosques throughout the U.S. and Canada, have traveling same-sex marriage officiants. Hinduism does not have an official position on gay marriage, though some Hindus and scholars have pointed to ancient religious texts as condoning homosexuality. Buddhism also has no official stance on same-sex marriage, though "sexual misconduct," is discouraged in the practice's Ten Virtuous Karmas. Some Buddhists interpret that to include homosexuality."
Shirina, probably all religions have congregations that are very much opposed to gay marriage.
Why not go to the Judaism forum and ask the Orthodox Jews how they would feel if their congregations were "forced to perform ceremonies for gay couples"
This is from the Huffington Post:
"Views on same-sex marriage among non-Christian religions vary. Among Jews, two of the three major Jewish denominations, Reform and Conservative, allow same-sex marriages. The Reconstructionist movement also allows gay marriages. But each group lets rabbis opt-out of officiating same-sex ceremonies. The Orthodox Union, the major Orthodox Jewish body in the United States, has opposed gay marriage.
Positions also range among Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. Most mosques do not allow same-sex marriages, and a high-ranking cleric at Egypt's Al-Azhar University, one of Islam's most respected schools, recently declared gay marriage to be against the faith. But organizations such as Muslims for Progressive Values, which has a network of LGBT-friendly mosques throughout the U.S. and Canada, have traveling same-sex marriage officiants. Hinduism does not have an official position on gay marriage, though some Hindus and scholars have pointed to ancient religious texts as condoning homosexuality. Buddhism also has no official stance on same-sex marriage, though "sexual misconduct," is discouraged in the practice's Ten Virtuous Karmas. Some Buddhists interpret that to include homosexuality."
Well, my point isn't that we should force churches to perform same-sex ceremonies. In the other (now closed) thread on the topic, I even stated that churches should have the right to deny having to perform those types of ceremonies. That is freedom of religion.
My point is that no one is forcing churches to do anything. It's a slippery slope argument used to make people afraid of what will happen if gays are allowed to marry. It's one of those, "And the next thing you know ..." arguments that doesn't have any basis in factual law.
But here we have Christians voting to make discrimination outside of the church legal just so a religious zealot (or non-religious bigot) can legitimize their hatred and disgust of homosexuals no matter where they are. Thus even secular businesses selling secular products and which are in the game for profit can now give anyone they SUSPECT as being gay the big boot to the curb without having to worry about any sort of civil rights backlash. Yeah, I said they only have to SUSPECT that you're gay because - how can you prove that you're not?
It's a bad law. One of the worst I've seen in a long time. And we have religious zealotry to thank for it. As I said before, with so many victories against gay marriage under their belts, what with all of the anti-gay state amendments, it was only a matter of time before the Christian extremists went for another victory. And they'll keep going until they are finally stopped. Mark my words, and mark them well.
What I find even more entertaining is that they don't want to own their discrimination publicly. Someone tried to amend the bill to include a notification clause. If a store owner wanted to discriminate, fine, but they must have a sign in their storefront that says that they will not serve homosexuals. That Idea was shot down.
At least none of the Christians came here to defend it yet. Though they're not making tracks to condemn it either - and silence implies consent, or so the saying goes.
At least none of the Christians came here to defend it yet. Though they're not making tracks to condemn it either - and silence implies consent, or so the saying goes.
The saying is right. The Arizona law is right and I hope it stands.
I just find it angering that Christians whine and moan about being persecuted - but here is an example of REAL persecution, ladies and gentlemen, which means I am going to positively SLAM the next Christian who moans about being persecuted. Even at the risk of getting myself banned, if needs be.
Shirina..I gave an opinion about persecution.
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