What's the deal with Jehovah's Witness? (translation, churches, Isaac, punishment)

[Hoosier]

I am really enjoying this thread! Thank you to all who are posting! This information is invaluable to me. What I don't understand is all the worry about pagan rituals and living in the world. We are merely visitors here as the Bible says. To disassociate ourselves with everyone is not right. Jesus went out to the people and engaged with them. God draws people to himself through people. How can people learn about God's love without seeing it in action?

[tennesseedreamin]

Originally Posted by fishbowl

tennesseedreamin, Are you a JW? Or studying with them? You are preaching the party line here. I mean no disrespect to you, but I've been there and I've said the same things you have said.

There is so much more to that organization. And there is a very dark side to life as a JW.

I realize that if you are a JW, or are getting sucked into that religion, this will just bounce off your mind and mean nothing.

If it gives you comfort, and your life in the WTS is good, then good for you. But I know so many people who were so betrayed.

Did you even read the other posts? The ones you didn't respond to?

You are correct that JWs don't believe in Hell. It always surprises me when someone says that a JW came to the door and proclaimed someone else was going to Hell. That is so far out in left field for JWs that I figured everyone knew that by now. Evidently not.

As for brainwashing. It's subtle. But when a group of people are not allowed to question and can get in trouble for questioning or disagreeing, that's pretty much control and takes some kind of mind control to achieve that level of control.

If you don't believe that, next time something doesn't make sense to you, rather than relying on time to fix it for you, start questioning people about it. Tell them it doesn't make sense to you. Discuss it with several people. Bring it up in the weekly bible study. See what happens.

Take care though. If being in good standing means a lot to you, best not do that. I think you are aware of that if you've been a JW for very long. If you are simply studying, take caution. Things aren't always as they seem when you're still an outsider.

I have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses for many many years and never have I been unallowed to question anything or gotten in "trouble" for asking questions. I answer every question too without some ominous alterior motive. The things you say are typical of the "subtle" approach of turning people away from us. But as I said in my other post, I'm not going to talk in here anymore. Things have changed too much. Why would I want to talk with people who are looking at me with suspicion just because of persons like you?

[Hoosier]

Originally Posted by tennesseedreamin

I have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses for many many years and never have I been unallowed to question anything or gotten in "trouble" for asking questions. I answer every question too without some ominous alterior motive. The things you say are typical of the "subtle" approach of turning people away from us. But as I said in my other post, I'm not going to talk in here anymore. Things have changed too much. Why would I want to talk with people who are looking at me with suspicion just because of persons like you?

Now Tennessee, we're all here to learn. There are many more of us reading your posts and all of the other posts. You may not agree with fishbowl and her views...and that's completely your perogative, but please know that I am very grateful for your POV and am quite interested in all that has been said here. Thank you for sharing with us!

[fishbowl]

Once again, I almost could have lip synced what you said. I know you can ask questions, but I bet you cannot question as though you disagree, and that if you find something you just can't agree with, you have to hide it, or you have to somehow come around to their thinking. I have yet to meet a JW, while I was one, and since I've left, who didn't find points they felt were questionable come up. Yet, to a person they came around to the WTS party line.

You simply must walk in lock-step if you want to remain part of the congregation. There is no room for "independent thinking".

I remember a guy who insisted on some point of scripture. He felt the WTS was wrong. He wouldn't back down. He was disfellowshipped. A couple of years later the WTS changed its stand on that issue, and it was exactly what that guy had said.

We thought he'd be reinstated immediately. But no, they said he had to go through the normal, painful reinstatement procedures. They said "He was running ahead of the organization." So, even though he was apparently right, there was no apology and no reinstatement. They were more interested in obedience than they were truth.

My daughter asked some questions once. Something simply didn't make sense to her. She was a young teenager. She asked my friend with whom she was studying. My friend went to the elders. (This was one of my very best friends!) Some elders took her aside and asked her if her questioning was true. My daughter said yes. One elder stayed there talking to her, and she asked her questions, then the elder told her that she was not to question, she was to accept, period. He made no attempt to explain anything to her, just that she had to accept what they were being taught.

That was the moment my daughter decided she'd never be a JW when she grew up. It was no outside influence that pulled her away. She was pushed away from the inside. I was a member in good standing at that time. Fortunately, my entire family figured things out and had the personal power to walk away from that organization.

I don't want to break your faith. If you are happy there, great. I have read your profile and think if you find comfort within the congregation and from sharing your religion, then good. I'm glad for you and think you should stay within the walls of the KH.

[Hoosier]

Fishbowl, how amazing as what you're describing about asking questions is so similar to the Catholic church, with the exception of being excommunicated. We were always taught to just listen and never question what a priest said. Priests and nuns were always right, according to the church. But as men and women we are fallible, that you can bet on.

Thank you for all your words of wisdom here! This thread is helping me better understand a few of my co-workers. I shared verses from the trinity with her and she was amazed I believed in that. We're working on setting up a time to talk...hopefully that will happen. She is extremely busy with work. She is married to a non-JW. Can there be nominal JWs who go out drinking and have a worldly time, and still be accepted in the church?

[fishbowl]

Hoosier, you must have been Catholic sometime back. I had my time with them too, but was never told that priests and nuns are always right. Even the pope isn't considered always right. If you went to Catholic school, that may have just been the old thing of the authority always being right. But I've never heard that as an adult.

Also, disfellowshipping in the WTS is frequent, but being excommunicated isn't. When a person is DF'd from the JW religion, he or she gets shunned. It's a terrible thing, a very harsh thing, and is not scriptural, although they will show you scriptures, out of context, to prove their point about shunning. Sometimes even family members shun each other. Not always. I've been part of both religions and can tell you that the comparisons are few and far between.

As for getting together with your co-worker, I can almost guarantee that she has you in her sights as recruitment material. If she is a strong JW, at some point when you start making sense, she'll just glaze over, or excuse herself and talk to someone else to get information. Be very careful, they use circular reasoning and it is very easy to fall into it. That organization has an answer for everything, whether it makes sense or not.

There are nominal JWs, but they generally get "marked." Marking happens when someone is misbehaving and gets put on public reproof. That means that you become very wary around that person, perhaps not socializing with them, but still being kind to them. An individual can also mark someone else, if they feel that person is somehow discouraging them or if the person is doing something you don't approve of.

A known excessive drinker will get put on "public reproof." JWs are allowed to drink though, and go out and have fun. They don't approve of drunkeness or drinking to excess. It depends on what you mean by "a worldly time."

My kids were pretty good kids growing up. A few minor problems as teens. The very worst problems we ever had with other kids was with JW kids. The most significant was a JW kid who got into drugs. My son turned them down, and told me. I immediately called the elders. They dragged that kid in, told him that my son had told them he was on drugs and trying to sell them. How stupid could they get?

The next day there was a death threat left on our car windshield. We knew who did it, so I called the police, the boy's mother, and the elders.

Our car was broken into by that kid and his friends, and there were subtle threats for several more months. One time they were caught about to break into our car for the second time.

The thing is, JWs aren't perfect. ANd they don't pretend to be. They only think they have "The Truth." And that's what they call their religion, "The Truth." I could have asked tennessedreamin how long she'd been "in the truth," and she'd have known exactly what I was talking about.

There was a sex scandal similar to the one in the Catholic church, but there are many JWs who deny it and say it was a lie. It wasn't a lie.

There are so very many things the WTS has changed. I wonder if TD has any idea of the weird and strange history of the WTS. The San Diego connection?

There are scriptures about false prophets and how to recognize them. The WTS fits those scriptures very well.

[AdrianR]

Originally Posted by Hoosier

Can there be nominal JWs who go out drinking and have a worldly time, and still be accepted in the church?

It depends. Would this person be a heavy drinker, getting drunk? Drinking is ok if it is in moderation. What do you mean by a worldy time? Bar hopping, sleeping around, using drugs, cussing, viewing immoral or violent content? If that is the case then, that person is given the opportunity and the help to stop these practices. If in time they refuse to repent of these worldy deeds, then yes, they are most likely dissfellowshipped.

"But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? " Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves." -1 Cor. 5:11

"But if anyone is not obediant to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. And yet, do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother." -2 Thess. 3:14, 15; 1 Tim. 5:20; Rom. 15:1; 1 Thess. 5:14

"Withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition you received from us." -2 Thess. 3:6; 1 Cor. 5:5, 11-13

God had an arrangement in the Law of Moses to keep the wicked man from corrupting others. (Deut. 21:18-21) And this is the primary reason for disfellowshipping.

"Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits." -1 Cor. 15:33

-Please read all the Scriptures cited to get a clearer view of this process-

And just to note, in case JW haters decide to swoop in and decry this "terrible process" of disfellowshipping, please notice that all the reasons why this takes place is from the Bible, not the Watchtower Society or the governing body. Take it up with God, its in His book.

[AdrianR]

Originally Posted by Hoosier

I am really enjoying this thread! Thank you to all who are posting! This information is invaluable to me. What I don't understand is all the worry about pagan rituals and living in the world. Well, to ones who take the commands to "seperate yuorself" from things not approved by God, this is very serious. We obey these things, not only out of "fear," but aso because we do not wish to hurt our God. We are merely visitors here as the Bible says. To disassociate ourselves with everyone is not right. We do not dicassociate ourselves with everyone. We just listen to the Bible when it says to be 'not using this world to the full.' And the saying, 'for what fellowship is there between believers and unbelievers?' And another one, "bad asscociation spoil useful habits." We as JW try to walk cautiously as to not be sucked into a wordly thinking and way of life, for as the Bible shows many times, the world is under control of Satan. Jesus went out to the people and engaged with them. As do JW, which we are hated for-go figure. God draws people to himself through people. How can people learn about God's love without seeing it in action? Not to brag but, I could fill volumes and volumes of how many have come to my faith because of seeing Gods love in action by my brothers and sisters.

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[Mattie Jo]

http://www.xjw.com/shunning.html

The text is clear that a person with whom the congregation should not mix company is one who is:
1) "called a brother" (that is, one who professes to be a member of the congregation); and
2) practicing fornication, greed, idolotry, reviling (insulting), habitual drunkeness, and/or extortion (theft).
Jehovah's Witnesses do not disfellowship greedy persons.
They often do not disfellowship people who regularly get drunk unless their conduct becomes so outrageous and publicly-known as to bring reproach upon Jehovah's Witnesses.
They do not disfellowship people for many of the things which they themselves class as "idolatry" (for example: materialism, worshipping an organization, etc.).
On the other hand, Jehovah's Witnesses do disfellowship and shun people for:

no longer claiming to be called a brother/sister.
independent study and discussion of the Bible that brings Watchtower doctrine into question.
possession of literature written by former members.
having lunch with a former member, even if the former member professes to be a Christian and was not disfellowshipped for fornication, greed, idolotry, reviling, drunkeness, or extortion.
attending a service of any other church or religious organization.
authorizing a blood transfusion, even to save the life of a child.
numerous other actions not mentioned in scripture, but deemed by the congregation elders to be "unclean conduct," or "conduct unbecoming" of a Jehovah's Witness. "Conduct" in this case covers a broad range of actions not clearly defined by the Society, leaving discernment about what is not acceptable to the discretion of the congregation's elders. As a result, standards by which people may be disfellowshiped are inconsistent throughout this religion which claims "unity" to be one of their identifying characteristics

.


Understanding the scripture:

Christians were instructed to "greet" one another with a kiss. (Rom.16:16; 1.Cor.16:20; 2Cor.13:12; Ti.3:15; 1Pet.5:14) When Paul sent his "greetings" in a letter to the Christians in Thessalonica, he requested that the "brothers" be greeted by a "holy kiss" on his behalf. (1Thess.5:26)
It was by this sign that Judas betrayed Jesus. (Luke 22:47,48)

Clearly, Paul did instruct Christians to expel from the congregation's fellowship any person who was purposely practicing willful sin. The disassociation would quite naturally exclude them from being greeted by the identifying "holy kiss," as well as not being allowed to share in meetings and the meals for Christian worship and prayer. However, Paul's instruction did not prohibit normal conversation or witnessing to former members. Nor were they barred from attending worship in the temple or the synagogues. Jesus, the apostles and Paul, along with the rest of the Jews, worshipped God both publicly in the temple and synagogues, and privately with small groups in various homes. (Acts 5:42) It was from the private Christian fellowship for worship that sinners were excluded.

"For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing right. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."--2Thes.3:13-15 NWT And yet they do consider that person an enemy, they consider that person evil and therefore of the devil, and they don't continue to admonish that person; instead they no longer speak to that person. They also make that person wait a year before they can return. They basically don't go after lost sheep.

Instruction in the undistributed elders' guide
When a Jehovah's Witness male qualifies to be an elder in the congregation, he is assigned an uncirculated proprietary book that gives instruction for counseling and disciplinary actions according to the Society's rules. The title of this book is Pay Attention To Yourselves and to All the Flock. Interestingly, on the bottom of page 103 in that book, it is stated that Jehovah's Witnesses need not be disfellowshipped for associating with disfellowshipped relatives except if the association involves "spiritual association" or if there is an attempt to excuse the former member's objectional behavior. It says:
"Normally, a close relative would not be disfellowshipped for associating with a disfellowshipped person unless there is spiritual association or an effort made to excuse the wrongful course."--"Flock book", page 103, last paragraph.
Despite this documented exclusion, Jehovah's Witnesses the world over are taught that to please Jehovah God they must shun their siblings, their children, and even their parents who either choose to leave or are disfellowshipped--especially if the crime is variance with Watchtower doctrine for which they are branded "apostates." And it is a fact that many Witnesses have been disfellowshipped for refusing to shun their disfellowshipped relatives.

[Mattie Jo]

so that on the contrary you should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his excessive sorrow.

2 Corinthians 2:7

This scripture says that you should forgive those that have done wrong; it doesn't say that they have to wait a year before they can be forgiven. There is nowhere in the Bible that you can find this, and so people who are disfellowshipped are swallowed up in sorrow. Most that are disfellowshipped are repentent in the first place, but no one sees this, and so they are kicked out anywhere. Whereas their are brothers that are doing wrong by molesting children, and they are not disfellowshipped. There are women and children that are abused by their husbands, and it is the women and/or children that get kicked out. All you have to do to know that this is often the case is to read the exJW website that I have posted here.