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Up until recent months, I have been of the opinion that the majority of people are basically 'good' people.
Speaking personally, as many know, I'm an atheist. I believe you should treat people as you wish to be treated yourself, and I live my life by that. I believe it's all you need.
I've never believed in any 'being' or deity watching over me -checking what I'm doing.
I've never believed in any kind of concept of original sin - I hadn't even heard of the concept until I was probably a teenager.
If anything I believe the opposite. I believe most people are good from birth. What happens after that is down to a mix of education, parenting, environment and genes to a certain extent.
Others I know have other perspectives.
However, recent events have made me question this.
We have all been shocked at the actions of ISIS and the brutality going on in the Middle East at the moment. Then the story of 'India's daughter' - the girl brutally raped and disemboweled on a bus in Delhi - her attackers not showing a sign of remorse and that she deserved it - just for being female. This has opened up another whole world of debate about the brutality going on in India.
I still do believe children are born 'good', however I'm beginning to think that children (and adults) are far more easily led that I previously imagined.
This incident and those like it have of course been going on for centuries, and have happened in all cultures in the past, but in recent times and in western society, we have been somewhat shielded from it. Now due to the internet we see everything.
Is this just a reflection of how things really are?
I think morality has always been a result of culture more than genetics. I think that people behave as they were taught to behave, and that this is a combination of teaching by their parents, their peers, their neighborhood, their country, their religion and, in the past 250 years or so, the media (starting with magazines and newspapers up to the Internet). So, no, I am not "reassessing morality" just because of Internet publicity about horrific events, whether they are taking place in the Middle East or in Brooklyn.
However, what has made me reassess what is acceptable behavior and what is not are public discussions (such as City Data forums) about behavior that was not so long ago considered "immoral", such as homosexuality or any kind of sex outside of marriage. These discussions and my own research has convinced me that there are actually only a few behaviors that are completely immoral without any exceptions whatsoever. (These include torture, rape, serial and mass murder, and child abuse.) Many behaviors and actions that would have caused scandal, ostracism and even worse 50 years ago are now commonly accepted; and I think this is mostly a good thing, even though I do think that we have gone overboard in "unconditional acceptance" in some cases. I have never thought that the wants of the few should outweigh the wants of the many, and I still don't. Actual needs are one thing, but wants are another, in my opinion.
Last edited by katharsis; 03-16-2015 at 10:05 AM..
Up until recent months, I have been of the opinion that the majority of people are basically 'good' people.
Speaking personally, as many know, I'm an atheist. I believe you should treat people as you wish to be treated yourself, and I live my life by that. I believe it's all you need.
I've never believed in any 'being' or deity watching over me -checking what I'm doing.
I've never believed in any kind of concept of original sin - I hadn't even heard of the concept until I was probably a teenager.
If anything I believe the opposite. I believe most people are good from birth. What happens after that is down to a mix of education, parenting, environment and genes to a certain extent.
Others I know have other perspectives.
However, recent events have made me question this.
We have all been shocked at the actions of ISIS and the brutality going on in the Middle East at the moment. Then the story of 'India's daughter' - the girl brutally raped and disemboweled on a bus in Delhi - her attackers not showing a sign of remorse and that she deserved it - just for being female. This has opened up another whole world of debate about the brutality going on in India.
I still do believe children are born 'good', however I'm beginning to think that children (and adults) are far more easily led that I previously imagined.
This incident and those like it have of course been going on for centuries, and have happened in all cultures in the past, but in recent times and in western society, we have been somewhat shielded from it. Now due to the internet we see everything.
Is this just a reflection of how things really are?
I would say it's a good thing. Rape, torture, murder and all sorts of things used to be acceptable because we were sheltered from them. Now, with modern technology casting a spotlight on such things, bad people might have to rethink their behaviors. More importantly, it generates the sort of outrage among good people in the world sufficient to make real change happen. These are things that have been going on for most of human history. I would venture to say that, relative to the population of humanity, there is significantly less going on now than there was in the distant past.
Consider that just 200 years ago in India, the practice of Sati was commonplace: A woman whose husband died was expected to throw herself on her husbands burning funeral pyre and be burned to death with him. Women refusing were a disgrace to their family, but they didn't get out of it. They were tied up and thrown onto the funeral pyre. Today, Sati is illegal and taboo all over India. I'd say that's progress.
Also consider that one man who raped a woman in India was recently lynched by an angry mob. Perhaps it's not the reaction we would hope for, but it does demonstrate that the people of India are outraged by what they are seeing now that their nation's rape culture is squarely under the international spotlight. This too is progress.
The biggest element of "goodness" that you seem to be missing is the horizon of awareness of application. Probably all of the Isis people are "good" to their families and the people who share their perception of their religion.
Expanding the awareness of kinship is where the major change has been in the last few millennia, but it surely needs a lot more work.
whocares811 and godofthunder9010, thank you both so much for your considered responses.
I must admit, these events have been getting to me. These seem like dispiriting times.
Maybe it's a sign of getting older - the older generation (am I 'older generation' at 47?) always perceive the world to be worse than the previous generation, but you are right - maybe its just a question of perspective?
Do you think we are going through a transitional period? The world to me does seem to be going through a rough time, but maybe it's just a stage we have to go through to get to a better place?
I do question whether the internet helps or hinders our progress.
Maybe I should start a thread listing all injustices people had to endure in centuries past to get this all in perspective?
There certainly have been worse times in the past to live. Crime rate through most of the developed world has decreased over the last couple of decades but we are more aware due to the vastly increased speed and variety of media to inform or to scare us. I am 15 years older than the OP and I do not think the events in the world are causing me to reasses my mortality. What I am doing is making sure I can visit some of the places I have always wanted to visit and to do some things I have yet to accomplish.
Is what is happening in the middle east by ISIS any worse than in the 90s with Rwanda and the former Yuguslavia? As well during that time Latin America was still having all kinds of problems with governments and or opponents of those governments, Soviets in Afghanistan plus the trouble in Northern Ireland.
The biggest element of "goodness" that you seem to be missing is the horizon of awareness of application. Probably all of the Isis people are "good" to their families and the people who share their perception of their religion.
Expanding the awareness of kinship is where the major change has been in the last few millennia, but it surely needs a lot more work.
I guess they would have to define 'good'. ISIS appear to behave as they do because they believe they are acting according to 'god's will'. But there has to be some extreme degree of cognitive dissonance going on there. As with the Indias Daughter incident, there is no regard for human life at all. Life doesn't seem to be regarded in any way precious at all - one would think there would be some inkling of respect for 'gods creation' - but no. I can't fathom it at all.
whocares811 and godofthunder9010, thank you both so much for your considered responses.
I must admit, these events have been getting to me. These seem like dispiriting times.
Maybe it's a sign of getting older - the older generation (am I 'older generation' at 47?) always perceive the world to be worse than the previous generation, but you are right - maybe its just a question of perspective? Do you think we are going through a transitional period? The world to me does seem to be going through a rough time, but maybe it's just a stage we have to go through to get to a better place?
That is my sincere hope. By throwing dark deeds into the light, it probably helps. The trouble is, we don't hear enough good news because good news doesn't sell as well as bad news. Right now the world as a whole is living in a golden age. We've never seen this much peace.
Quote:
I do question whether the internet helps or hinders our progress.
Maybe I should start a thread listing all injustices people had to endure in centuries past to get this all in perspective?
Just about any conqueror from world history who we consider "great" was about as bad as Hitler or Stalin relative to their own time period. Practices like bride by capture were actually considered socially acceptable just about everywhere. Western Europe and America tends to beat themselves up over their history of slavery, but we're missing the good news. Used to be that slavery was commonplace everywhere. But East and West and every corner of this planet has made the practice illegal. Only in the last 150 years of human history did slavery transition from a perfectly legit thing to an unspeakable crime. Once upon a time, kidnapping and human trafficking was perfectly legit once you got your victim far enough away away. Just another slave-taking strategy, etc. Now the entire international community is banding together to try to stamp out the practice. Farther back in history, raping and pillaging and wanton destruction were the expected spoils of war. Armies didn't have to be supplied as much because they plundered what they needed as they went. In today's world, that sort of thing is strongly frowned upon. Remember that in World War II, American soldiers found guilty of rape or plunder were put to death. Today's armies are expected to bring their own food, shelter and supplies. Genocides in human history were commonplace anciently. Archaeologists even use nicer terms for it, like population displacement. Case in point: The Saxon invasion of England displaced (killed off) 90% of the native male population in most areas. Simple math to figure out how that works from a woman's perspective: You're husband is brutally murdered by one of these strange new invaders and now you're their new wife and there was nothing you could do about it. The Roman Empire is widely considered to be a highly civilized culture, yet it was considered perfectly acceptable to rape one of your slaves anytime you wished. The Romans also exterminated entire populations in many cases.
The Mongols were about as bad as you get. Just about everywhere they conquered, the population dropped by at least half. They conquered everything in the known world that they wanted to conquer. Because the Mongols were relatively few in number, they intentionally massacred conquered populations. This ensured that there would be less people to rule over and that the survivors would be too terrified to ever even considered revolution. If you really study the Mongols you realize that ISIS is an extremely toned down version of the same thing. The jury is still out on whether ISIS will even survive. I'm betting they won't.
That is my sincere hope. By throwing dark deeds into the light, it probably helps. The trouble is, we don't hear enough good news because good news doesn't sell as well as bad news. Right now the world as a whole is living in a golden age. We've never seen this much peace.
Just about any conqueror from world history who we consider "great" was about as bad as Hitler or Stalin relative to their own time period. Practices like bride by capture were actually considered socially acceptable just about everywhere. Western Europe and America tends to beat themselves up over their history of slavery, but we're missing the good news. Used to be that slavery was commonplace everywhere. But East and West and every corner of this planet has made the practice illegal. Only in the last 150 years of human history did slavery transition from a perfectly legit thing to an unspeakable crime. Once upon a time, kidnapping and human trafficking was perfectly legit once you got your victim far enough away away. Just another slave-taking strategy, etc. Now the entire international community is banding together to try to stamp out the practice. Farther back in history, raping and pillaging and wanton destruction were the expected spoils of war. Armies didn't have to be supplied as much because they plundered what they needed as they went. In today's world, that sort of thing is strongly frowned upon. Remember that in World War II, American soldiers found guilty of rape or plunder were put to death. Today's armies are expected to bring their own food, shelter and supplies. Genocides in human history were commonplace anciently. Archaeologists even use nicer terms for it, like population displacement. Case in point: The Saxon invasion of England displaced (killed off) 90% of the native male population in most areas. Simple math to figure out how that works from a woman's perspective: You're husband is brutally murdered by one of these strange new invaders and now you're their new wife and there was nothing you could do about it. The Roman Empire is widely considered to be a highly civilized culture, yet it was considered perfectly acceptable to rape one of your slaves anytime you wished. The Romans also exterminated entire populations in many cases.
The Mongols were about as bad as you get. Just about everywhere they conquered, the population dropped by at least half. They conquered everything in the known world that they wanted to conquer. Because the Mongols were relatively few in number, they intentionally massacred conquered populations. This ensured that there would be less people to rule over and that the survivors would be too terrified to ever even considered revolution. If you really study the Mongols you realize that ISIS is an extremely toned down version of the same thing. The jury is still out on whether ISIS will even survive. I'm betting they won't.
That might be a good start.
Another awesome post. Can't rep you again but thank you. This has lifted my spirits already I must say.
Although it does also kind of reinforce my growing change of heart that actually brutality historically might have been the norm and therefore my previous view about people being inherently 'good' might have been somewhat misguided.
We are animals after all. I don't know if you have ever seen the Louis CK stage show where he jokes that humans are fortunate because we are one of the few species that got out of the food chain. Hilarious. Except that we did a good job of slaughtering each other in the past I guess!
We are an evolving species - I like to think learning lessons from our past. More recently it seemed we were making a return to the dark ages. I kind of hope that the media makes this new Islamic Caliphate seem worse than it really is - that we just see more these days because of the ease of communication. Before the internet it could all be hidden away with propaganda.
I've heard people say the internet should be made widely available in the middle east - like holding up a mirror to your own morality. I dont know about that. I'm concerned about western women travelling to Syria to join these extremists despite all they have seen in the media. I think it could work both ways.
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