Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is one of the verses, unless I'm interpreting "false witness wrong, which is entirely possible. If I am wrong, I invite correction.
"But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
Matthew 15:18-20
Exodus 20:
13 You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Yes but he was challenging the religious leaders of the day. Jesus is challenging the religious leader to wake up and understand the truth that stands right in front of him. If he is calling Jesus "good," then he must come to understand that Jesus is God and not play religious games, but come to truly believe. Jesus isn't denying that he is God; Jesus is affirming that he is God and that man truly needs to acknowledge that he is. Eternal questions are not simply religious speculation, but the core questions of the human soul. Only God can answer those questions. So if he is going to ask Jesus this question, he needs to pay attention and place his faith in Jesus' answer. So do we!
A personal relationship with the Lord Jesus means he is lord, saviour and best friend.
Richard, as a Jew, you may or may not know how Fundamentalists view the book of Job and its characters. Preconceived and later Christian theology are forced into the book. For me, as a Christian at the time, the idea that a "good" god had a conversation with his supposed arch enemy and waged a bet with him as to who would win allegiance was rather disturbing. Shock turned to doubt which led to a discrediting of my understanding of the book and eventually a proper perspective that removed the rose colored glasses I once wore.
Richard, as a Jew, you may or may not know how Fundamentalists view the book of Job and its characters. Preconceived and later Christian theology are forced into the book. For me, as a Christian at the time, the idea that a "good" god had a conversation with his supposed arch enemy and waged a bet with him as to who would win allegiance was rather disturbing. Shock turned to doubt which led to a discrediting of my understanding of the book and eventually a proper perspective that removed the rose colored glasses I once wore.
The book of Job is considered by some scholars to be the earliest written book of the Bible for a number of reasons, some I list here from the link:
Quote:
Many scholars agree that Job is the oldest book in the Bible, written by an unknown Israelite about 1500 B.C. (aside: I think this is about 800 years earlier than the real date of authorship)
-----------------
It takes place during the Patriarchal Age when heads of families offered sacrifices to God (Job 1:5; 42:7-9). And heads of families received instruction from God (Job 22:22; 23:12).
It contains no hints regarding Abraham, Moses, Israel, the Judges, the Kings, or Prophets of Israel. Nor is there any mention of the Law of Moses.
The rapid drift into idolatry does not appear to have happened yet. All mentioned still believe in the God of creation (Job 27:3; 33:4-6).
In the earliest Hebrew concepts Satan was not in control the way Hebrews later depicted him, and certainly nowhere near the monster Christianity now regards him in. He had to ask for God's permission to "test" a faithful follower of Yahweh. Moreover, it does not follow the later Hebrew tradition, swallowed by Christians, that good is rewarded and evil punished. In fact, it shows much more what Jesus spoke in Matthew 5: 44-46---
Quote:
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same?
In fact all of Job's friends try to convince him that he has sinned and needs to ask forgiveness to be relieved of all his woes. But Job insists he has not and refuses to relent.
So Satan was actually an ally of God (playing Devil's advocate--pun intended) to test the faithfulness of God's followers.
It isn't until we get to the NT, and late NT at that, where we see Satan develop not only into something more sinister, but also more independent and powerful:
Quote:
Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
I Peter 5:8
The wonderful thing about Job is we see unadorned early beliefs not colored with the bias that some later books reveal.
What it means for me is that some of us more liberal believers need to stand against our "believing friends" when they tell us we are doomed and going to hell. Not at all, I say, God is just being God and the adversary is now those who think, like Job's friends, that they are firmly in the ranks of the Lord.
It also means that God is as willing to bless unfaithful people as punish them, and just as willing to put the faithful through the fires of extreme anxiety to see if they really DO remain faithful. Goes against everything fundamentalists would teach. Yet it is all so easy to see in our day to day lives as being "good" or "evil" doesn't necessarily mean life is going to work out better or worse for any of us.
OK, I'm willing to completely embarrass myself here.
My church was a big supporter of Ken Hamm's Creation Museum, and I donated money for it (I guess it's too late to ask for it back, sigh).
My kids were in public school for part of elementary school before I started homeschooling them. I asked for my son to be excused from a test over the time period of the dinosaurs, because we believed the earth was only 6000 years old (I must mention, I graduated summa *** laude from an excellent university, with a degree in medical science! How did such brainwashing happen to me?!)
I owned a copy of the Pearl's book "To Train Up a Child." (Thankfully I did recognize that he went overboard and never followed his method of "discipline" but I owned the book, which is mortifying to me now.)
These things are shockingly, stupidly embarrassing to think about.
OK, I'm willing to completely embarrass myself here.
My church was a big supporter of Ken Hamm's Creation Museum, and I donated money for it (I guess it's too late to ask for it back, sigh).
My kids were in public school for part of elementary school before I started homeschooling them. I asked for my son to be excused from a test over the time period of the dinosaurs, because we believed the earth was only 6000 years old (I must mention, I graduated summa *** laude from an excellent university, with a degree in medical science! How did such brainwashing happen to me?!)
I owned a copy of the Pearl's book "To Train Up a Child." (Thankfully I did recognize that he went overboard and never followed his method of "discipline" but I owned the book, which is mortifying to me now.)
These things are shockingly, stupidly embarrassing to think about.
OK, I'm willing to completely embarrass myself here.
My church was a big supporter of Ken Hamm's Creation Museum, and I donated money for it (I guess it's too late to ask for it back, sigh).
My kids were in public school for part of elementary school before I started homeschooling them. I asked for my son to be excused from a test over the time period of the dinosaurs, because we believed the earth was only 6000 years old (I must mention, I graduated summa *** laude from an excellent university, with a degree in medical science! How did such brainwashing happen to me?!)
This is so sad and disturbing. I don't understand how anyone can get to this level.
Do you mind me asking what ever became of your children? Do they think the earth is only 6000 years old? Or that the Dinosaurs did not exist or live millions of years ago?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I owned a copy of the Pearl's book "To Train Up a Child." (Thankfully I did recognize that he went overboard and never followed his method of "discipline" but I owned the book, which is mortifying to me now.)
These things are shockingly, stupidly embarrassing to think about.
How did you become this lost? How did you over come it?
No part of me will ever be able to understand how anyone can become this conditioned by religion. It saddens me to know that so many children are being raised the same way.
I am sorry you went through this but I am very happy that you finally set your soul and mind free!
This is so sad and disturbing. I don't understand how anyone can get to this level.
Do you mind me asking what ever became of your children? Do they think the earth is only 6000 years old? Or that the Dinosaurs did not exist or live millions of years ago?
Thankfully, my boys are all great now! An MBA from Vanderbilt (after a 1570/1600 on his SAT, he had an academic full ride undergrad at Baylor, and almost full ride for his masters), an engineer from Purdue (substantial academic scholarships) and one graduating dental school from Indiana University next May (full ride undergrad, racking up debt for dental school!).
When the oldest was 18 and 1000 miles away from home for his first semester at college, he and I both (separately) began questioning our literal creationist and other fundie beliefs. (Side note: his pastor at Baylor was literally electrocuted and died during a baptism, which really shook his faith.) I remember taking with him about his and my changing beliefs when he came home for his Christmas break freshman year. Shortly thereafter, I talked with my other boys, humbly and sincerely apologizing for teaching them things I no longer believed.
Quote:
How did you become this lost? How did you over come it?
No part of me will ever be able to understand how anyone can become this conditioned by religion. It saddens me to know that so many children are being raised the same way.
I am sorry you went through this but I am very happy that you finally set your soul and mind free!
I will never know how I became so lost. I am not a stupid person; my IQ is actually quite high. I do remember that from the time I was young, I wanted answers to all the mysteries of life and the universe. As a child, I viewed most things in black and white, and I wanted to find concrete, black and white answers to my questions. When I found a church that claimed to have all the answers, that appealed to me.
Thankfully, my boys are all great now! An MBA from Vanderbilt (after a 1570/1600 on his SAT, he had an academic full ride undergrad at Baylor, and almost full ride for his masters), an engineer from Purdue (substantial academic scholarships) and one graduating dental school from Indiana University next May (full ride undergrad, racking up debt for dental school!).
Awesome!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
When the oldest was 18 and 1000 miles away from home for his first semester at college, he and I both (separately) began questioning our literal creationist and other fundie beliefs. (Side note: his pastor at Baylor was literally electrocuted and died during a baptism, which really shook his faith.) I remember taking with him about his and my changing beliefs when he came home for his Christmas break freshman year. Shortly thereafter, I talked with my other boys, humbly and sincerely apologizing for teaching them things I no longer believed.
Do any of them all still hold fundie beliefs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I will never know how I became so lost. I am not a stupid person; my IQ is actually quite high.
I often wonder how people become like this. It puzzles me endlessly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I do remember that from the time I was young, I wanted answers to all the mysteries of life and the universe. As a child, I viewed most things in black and white, and I wanted to find concrete, black and white answers to my questions. When I found a church that claimed to have all the answers, that appealed to me.
How young were you when you started down this path? Did your parents have any influence or a girlfriend? I find it hard to understand how a free mind can wind up a prisoner of fundamental religious beliefs. Were you suffering and looking for relief from that suffering? Were your conditioned by your parents? Perhaps it was your regimented black and white views on life? I always wonder what starts the trigger of walking down the path of fundamental religion.
I will never know how I became so lost. I am not a stupid person; my IQ is actually quite high. I do remember that from the time I was young, I wanted answers to all the mysteries of life and the universe. As a child, I viewed most things in black and white, and I wanted to find concrete, black and white answers to my questions. When I found a church that claimed to have all the answers, that appealed to me.
Click here and see that some of us feel your pain. Note my OP.
My ears are listening and trust me, there are some in the peanut gallery peeping in and needing the courage your post might generate.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
