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That is one of the most illogical statements I have ever heard or read.
You are saying that God designed the system and the logic and the natural laws.
No. I'm saying that IF God designed the system, then perhaps he designed the basic laws so that system could emerge/self-organize in such a way that it would be indistinguishable from a system that needs no ID.
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That IS intelligent design.
IF there is a God, and God did this, then yes, ontologically speaking it would, in fact, be ID. But epistemologically - i.e., insofar as what can be known by reason and evidence - it would be indistinguishable from a fully natural world that requires no ID. God would be accessible only by faith, not by reason, because all logic and evidence would point to a world that does not logically require ID.
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And then you say there is no Intelligent Designer.
Actually, what I say is that ID is not logically required. So I'm not saying there is no ID; I'm just saying we are not compelled by logic or evidence to believe in one. (And, IF you are right about the existence of God, then I am finding what God intended - i.e., I am finding that God's existence is not deducible from logic/evidence.)
I think I said it here about as clearly as I can say it:
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Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof
Couldn't God have purposefully designed the natural world in accordance with natural laws that could have, in principle, brought the world into being without Him?
Last edited by mensaguy; 06-25-2018 at 04:56 AM..
Reason: Read the rules. Don't use red text.
Couldn't God have purposefully designed the natural world in accordance with natural laws that could have, in principle, brought the world into being without Him?
if God purposefully designed it, then it was not without Him.
That's why I'm saying the statement is not rational. or logical. at all.
the natural world is the laws of nature.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-19-2018 at 04:39 PM..
if God purposefully designed it, then it was not without Him.
True. I am assuming, for the sake of argument, that God exists and that God is, in fact, the Intelligent Designer of our world. But, what I'm asking is this: Couldn't God have purposefully designed our natural world such that the natural laws governing our world are powerful enough so that these laws could have, in principle, brought the world into being without God? Thus, scientists would eventually discover that ID is not a necessary hypothesis. They would be able to model the emergence of the world without drawing on the intelligence of a designer because, ironically, that is exactly how the Designer designed it.
True. I am assuming, for the sake of argument, that God exists and that God is, in fact, the Intelligent Designer of our world. But, what I'm asking is this: Couldn't God have purposefully designed our natural world such that the natural laws governing our world are powerful enough so that these laws could have, in principle, brought the world into being without God? Thus, scientists would eventually discover that ID is not a necessary hypothesis. They would be able to model the emergence of the world without drawing on the intelligence of a designer because, ironically, that is exactly how the Designer designed it.
and I am pointing out again that it is not logical or rational to say that a being "purposefully designed our natural world" and that the world emerged "without drawing on the intelligence of a designer"
it is not rational to say that a designer designs something, and then say it "emerges without the designer."
True. I am assuming, for the sake of argument, that God exists and that God is, in fact, the Intelligent Designer of our world. But, what I'm asking is this: Couldn't God have purposefully designed our natural world such that the natural laws governing our world are powerful enough so that these laws could have, in principle, brought the world into being without God? Thus, scientists would eventually discover that ID is not a necessary hypothesis. They would be able to model the emergence of the world without drawing on the intelligence of a designer because, ironically, that is exactly how the Designer designed it.
lmao, if they model it, well then, its designed. its like the biogenesis experiment. It was precisely recreated. maybe coded in in to recreate ... if you get my meaning.
and I am pointing out again that it is not logical or rational to say that a being "purposefully designed our natural world" and that the world emerged "without drawing on the intelligence of a designer"
it is not rational to say that a designer designs something, and then say it "emerges without the designer."
maybe the designer needed the doubt. for a purpose? people without purpose tend to, well, look like buddhist monks. still in robes and sandals.
but i would have to agree. At this point it just making circle talk.
it is not rational to say that a designer designs something, and then say it "emerges without the designer."
But I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is this:
(1) A designer designs something and creates it.
(2) The designer designed it so that, in principle, it is the type of thing that (from the perspective of his creation) could have emerged without the designer.
In other words, our scientists would find no reason to think our world logically requires a designer, even though it was, in fact, designed (per my "for the sake of argument" assumption).
What I'm saying is this:
(1) A designer designs something and creates it.
(2) The designer designed it so that, in principle, it is the type of thing that (from the perspective of his creation) could have emerged without the designer.
In other words, our scientists would find no reason to think our world logically requires a designer, even though it was, in fact, designed (per my "for the sake of argument" assumption).
Can a person deny there is a Creator? Yes. Free will allows a person to do that.
Can a person deny there is a Creator? Yes. Free will allows a person to do that.
denying a creator and showing one is not need are two different notions.
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still in robes and sandals. 