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i highlighted what logic i could (and should?) find in your post contributing to a (imho) very sensitive issue.
learning anything from each other? trying to understand who comes from where and/or is going where...
not meant as a personal insult.
I must admit I hardly understand many of your posts and this is one of them.
A poster said that God had said the OT no longer applied.
Logic would therefore decree that to that person at least ( and those who feel the same) that the OT was no longer relevant. If the OT is no longer relevant ( to those people ) then surely this means there is little need to retain it at all. I did not advocate burning the OT simply asking whether those people might chose to only follow thee NT instead.
This was not meant to all Christians simply those who might fit the answer given to Visvaldis.
My personal feeling is that a lot of Religious people do chose which dogma to follow and which to ignore , to me another completely illogical thing as exactly how do you discern which is true and which God has decreed no longer applicable ?
To me the Bible is a book written by men for men and has no relevance at all. I respect people's rights to believe , it is their prerogative. I really have nothing against anyone having the OT as part of their doctrine ( unless the precepts hurt others). It really is up to people what they chose to believe.
But I do find it odd how some precepts are adopted and others dropped... There is simply no common sense nor logic to it. Surely if God is a given and a constant in the universe his laws and commandments, his dogma never change no matter how our society evolves or not.
And it the New Testament has indeed supplanted the OT then what it the point of the OT ?
Why believe in one thing but not another. To me the only logical explanation is that our modern sensitivities rebel against certain barbaric OT ideals.
Something which is meant to have been given to man buy God no longer applies because man choses for it not to anymore.
Last edited by Mooseketeer; 06-04-2009 at 07:38 AM..
I must admit I hardly understand many of your posts and this is one of them.
there was nothing for you to understand in my post (the above one or others), but my attempt to tell you what i understand coming from you.
A poster said that God had said the OT no longer applied.
Logic would therefore decree that to that person at least ( and those who feel the same) that the OT was no longer relevant. If the OT is no longer relevant ( to those people ) then surely this means there is little need to retain it at all. I did not advocate burning the OT simply asking whether those people might chose to only follow thee NT instead.
read your own words again. perhaps loud.
you may not have "advocated" ..., but suggested something on an assumed logic on your part more than on the part of the other poster. imho.
This was not meant to all Christians simply those who might fit the answer given to Visvaldis.
in such a case, a simple straight forward question would have been better than the foregone conclusion your "logic" would expand on. imho.
My personal feeling is that a lot of Religious people do chose which dogma to follow and which to ignore , to me another completely illogical thing as exactly how do you discern which is true and which God has decreed no longer applicable ?
sic. you are entitled to your perception, but creating a judgmental "logic" transferring it on the other person may just not be such a wise step. imho.
To me the Bible is a book written by men for men and has no relevance at all. I respect people's rights to believe , it is their prerogative. I really have nothing against anyone having the OT as part of their doctrine ( unless the precepts hurt others). It really is up to people what they chose to believe.
But I do find it odd how some precepts are adopted and others dropped... There is simply no common sense nor logic to it. Surely if God is a given and a constant in the universe his laws and commandments, his dogma never change no matter how our society evolves or not.
And it the New Testament has indeed supplanted the OT then what it the point of the OT ?
Why believe in one thing but not another. To me the only logical explanation is that our modern sensitivities rebel against certain barbaric OT ideals.
Something which is meant to have been given to man buy God no longer applies because man choses for it not to anymore.
why believe in one thing but not another? the topic is why we don't stone anymore.
neither do we burn books anymore. and our modern sensitivities may just have advanced above rebellion .... in all its analogous appearances, imho.
Who made the decision that the OT no longer applies? Did god see the errors he made in the OT, and tell believers to ignore them?
Here's how the OT works. Born Again folks will preach the scripture and try to enforce it on nonbelievers but of course they don't live by all the rules and laws contained in that book.
I'm pretty certain some Christians would vote to bring back stoning but not for their own sins.
Last edited by ElizaTeal; 06-04-2009 at 10:29 AM..
Here's how the OT works. Born Again folks will preach the scripture and try to enforce it on nonbelievers but of course they don't live by all the rules and laws contained in that book.
I'm pretty certain some Christians would vote to bring back stoning but not for their own sins.
Probably because the christians are (by self-appointment) the judges of everyone else.
BTW- Speaking of the OT, isn't that the one which contains the 10 Commandments? So, I guess they are obsolete as well.
christians love nothing more than to "throw the baby out with the bathwater". They have contempt for the so called "Old Testament" which isn't OLD at all. It is the Tanach (1st 5 books of Moses, Psalms and Prophets) which just happens to be what was taught by the Messiah and HIS Talmadim (you folks them jesus and the apostles). They were Jews folks, and what they taught was essentially pure Old Testament. They did NOT read from a KJV to teach the masses in their day. To listen to you christians you would think they did. The only thing NEW about the so called New Testament (which is a virtual requoting of the Old Testament if you have a clue) is that the Messiah's shedding of blood met the requirement of the "Law of Sin and Death" for one and all that would repent and turn back to YHVH (God). The "Law of Sin and Death" was the ONLY law done away with via the Messiah's death. It stated that "with the witness of 2 or more, a person that intentionally sinned was to be stoned to death". Do you homework folks. NOTHING else was done away with in the Tanach PERIODl THIS is what they taught, NOT that you would take a ride on the greasy grace highway. They were NOT teaching christianity...they were teaching Torah. Get a grip. The church of rome got you all by the short hairs and mistranslated the scriptures to get you to suck up the drivel that is being taught. Most of you don't even know you are part of the Lost Sheep of the Tribe of Israel, you'd rather teach against what they were taught.
Matthew 5:17 [SIZE=1]17“Do not think that I came to destroy theTorah or the Prophets.n I did not come to destroy but to complete.o [/SIZE]
[SIZE=1] 18“For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tit-tle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.p 19“Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. [/SIZE]
Last I checked all has NOT been done and Heaven and Earth will NOT be passing away.
Christians love nothing more than to "throw the baby out with the bathwater"...
Brother Dcisive: You make some very good points! There is no conclusive proof in the Biblical record that ANY of the Jewish Law was abrogated by Yeshua (Jesus). In fact, Yeshua allegedly said quite the opposite in Mathew 5:17-18 as you point out. The verses written by Paul in Colossians appear to refer to the cleansing of sins caused by violations of the Law, not the removal of the Law itself. And Christians have adopted many pagan holidays from the Romans, like Christmas and Easter. Also they worship on Sunday which looks like they are continuing another pagan Roman practice. What happened to the Sabbath, right?
Do you think Christians are going to hell for this blasphemy?
But what if you are not Jewish? Do you accept the writings of Paul and the Book of Acts? If so, keeping the Law does not appear to be required for non-Jews.
In the 15th Chapter of Acts, a controversy breaks out concerning whether or not the gentiles should be taught to keep the Jewish Law. But in Acts15:10, : Peter says, why, “… put a yoke (the Law) upon the neck of the (gentile) disciples, which neither our fathers (ancient Jews) nor we (existing Jews) were able to bear? Good question! There is a discussion amongst the group and by verse 20 Peter says that the apostles will write to the gentiles that they, “… abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.†So by consensus of the (Jewish) apostles, the Gentiles have been relieved from keeping the Mosaic Law.
Did they have this authority?
Since I am a gentile, do you think I need to keep the Torah or not? It’s ok, either way, I’m just interested.
I have a lot of Jewish friends and one of them secretly believes in Yeshua. But he can never admit it to his family and I am sworn to secrecy. If they find out, he says his family will literally disown him. Very sad, methinks. I hope you have not been disowned!
Grace & Peace, John (not a Christian on this forum)
Did you understand my original question?
These quotes sound like a load of meaningless mumbo-jumbo that can be interpreted any way anyone wants. Scripture is give and hullabaloo and all that stuff. I guess that anyone can also interpret that god ordered two hot dogs with everything except the mustard. What does 15 have to do with the OT no longer being applicable?
How about a definite statement, such god saying the OT is obsolete, the NT is the book to follow.
There probably isn't such a passage.
Wouldn't it be more correct (and honest) to say that the followers of the bible themselves decided the OT is obsolete?
I gave you scripture that answered your questions. They have been believed for 2000 years. You can accept it or not.
I also gave you a little more than just the answer, so you could read it in context.
So why not discard the whole OT and only comply with the NT ? Seems like pick and mix religion to me. Either you believe all of it or none. Why not only publish the NT and destroy the OT ?
Not that lethal injections, hanging, or the electric chair etc.. is particularily non barbaric...
The OT is to learn more about God. Although I agree a lot of Christians do pick and choose, most will agree with me that we no longer live under OT law, but we use it as a learning tool. It is not picking and choosing in this case, as God Himself said it was nailed to the cross.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer
Only quoting Mzjamiedawn who said in response to Visvaldis that God did decide the OT no longer aplplied. My response seemed a logical one given the answer he/she gave.
I always find it odd how some religious people pick and chose which dogma is relevant and true and which is only a "metaphor" or "parable".... How very convenient. It certainly allows a great deal of leyway as to which precept to follow and which to ignore, all to do with what we want to read into it. The one and only "truth" is always bent to the will of the people rather than God's as interpertrations seemed to vary wildly.
I personally don't care whether the "Good book" contains both the OT and NT, as far as I am concerned both are invented narratives . I was simply making an observation that if stoning is no longer relevant then maybe other OT dogma should also completely be ignored. Seems quite logical that if God told his believers to disregard some of the OT then maybe the whole book is erroneous...
As far as I'm concerned people should be allowed to worship whatever and whoever they wish as long as it does not hurt anyone. I could not care less .
I agree. The law about stoning is no longer valid, and neither is other OT law. I do not live under OT laws, only under the NT.
Here's how the OT works. Born Again folks will preach the scripture and try to enforce it on nonbelievers but of course they don't live by all the rules and laws contained in that book.
I'm pretty certain some Christians would vote to bring back stoning but not for their own sins.
I never use the OT scripture when teaching, debating, or whatever about a particular subject that I am trying to prove applies today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis
Probably because the christians are (by self-appointment) the judges of everyone else.
BTW- Speaking of the OT, isn't that the one which contains the 10 Commandments? So, I guess they are obsolete as well.
Of the 10 commandments, 9 were spoken of in the NT as to still obey. So I only obey those 9.
jfraysse.....glad you're on to "some" of the truth. The other part is once you become "Born from Above" and accept the Messiah you are NO LONGER a Gentile. Pauls own words. Also you are indeed expected to follow the statutes that YHVH your Elohim (you may call HIM God) and that would include the Laws of Kashrute (Kosher). They were instituted for your health. Do NOT partake of the swine nor shellfish. They are "Not food for you" and HE never changed HIS mind about that. They are scavengers and feed on the waste of the earth. Those are NOT for you to partake in. God is very wise to say the least and he created those creatures for a reason, NOT to eat on our parts. As I said if you are a "Believer" you are NO LONGER a Gentile. You are a fully engrafted in member of the Israel and you ARE HIS PEOPLE. Please do NOT denigrate yourself to calling yourself a gentile. You should have moved beyond that by now (I hope). If you Love HIM you WILL do HIS commandments. He asked you to. read Rev: 22 sometime. Blessed are those that do HIS commandments. Don't you want to be one of those? I think so..........
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