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Why? What is so interesting to me is the people who have never been in the gay lifestyle and are so adamant about it not being a choice. If you've never had to deal with those feelings you cannot truly say whether it's a choice or not. You most definitely can have your opinions based upon what you read, hear and discuss with friends...but until you've walked in my shoes, you have no idea what it is like.
I will never agree with anyone sho says it isn't a choice. I'm living proof that it is a choice. I choose to be who I am in Christ. I am not in this forum to bash gay people; I am not in this forum to hurt anyone, but to learn. While my viewpoint may not be popular with many I know that I am not alone in this view. I have met many men and women who have been in the gay lifestyle and chosen to leave...and live heterosexual lives, both as Christians and of other faiths.
You make a valid point, that folks who have not walked in your shoes, don't have any idea what it is like. However, I have a question. Does anyone think that it is possible, that for some people, it is a choice; and for others, it is not? I ask simply because your experience tells you it is, yet Jabogitlu feels just as strongly that it isn't. Perhaps that's a peculiar question, but I have to wonder, why in the world would all gay people choose to be gay, just to "flaunt" a "sin" to everyone else, or to "challenge" God? (I know that I didn't get pregnant, with my first child, out of wedlock, just to challenge anyone, least of all, my Creator). Given the fact that so many gay people are shunned by much of their communities, by the Christian church, by their families, etc., it just doesn't seem as though it would be worth all that, just to thumb their nose at society and their Creator. I don't know if I am making sense with my question, but I would like someone to answer it, if that is possible.
But what about when their families DONT shun them? How do churches minister to the straight spouses and family members, who have their own perceptions and issues regardless of what is "supposed" to happen?
But what about when their families DONT shun them? How do churches minister to the straight spouses and family members, who have their own perceptions and issues regardless of what is "supposed" to happen?
I think that you and I are asking two different questions, Cmsvmom.
You want to know how churches should minister to straight spouses, and family, of gay people, if I have read your two posts correctly. (Personally, though, I think the church should certainly respond to your concerns, and not ignore the pain you seem to be experiencing. I think you have a very valid reason to be angry, because you feel betrayed by your husband. I believe that is how I would feel, under the circumstances. There is no reason for other people to assume that you hate gays, simply because of your own family situation).
I, on the other hand, would like the opinons of others, as to whether it is possible for some gays to make a choice, and whether for others, it is indeed, nature, (i.e. inborn). Because it just seems odd to me that all gays make a "choice", to rebel against God, as Christians say.
I don't know if either one of us will get a satisfactory answer to our questions, but hopefully, we'll both get some responses to them, so that we might have more to mull over, and consider.
We have several gay couples with kids at my son's school (Catholic school)...and they do attend the church as well. No one to my knowledge has ever made them feel less welcome. So come on over here and I'll introduce you around after mass.
One of the struggles that I had as a gay catholic was the feeling of BELONGING in a catholic church. Throughout the years I've read how the Church always comes out STRONGLY AGAINST anything that even remotely advances my civil rights in this country. I've read how Dignity (Catholic gay groups) officers have resigned in disgust after the pronouncements of the bishops or Pope John Paul against gay men and lesbians. Even so, I still have gay friends who insist on celebrating Mass every Sunday. Of course, I'm always questioning them "Why would you support a Church which gladly takes your $$$ but systematically considers you LESS than a human being?" I got different answers from my gay friends. One of them told me that John Paul actually came out in favor of gays, which I didn't believe. My most convincing friend told me that he found a "liberal" church in sta monica (ca). It's actually a church that gov arnold and maria shriver attend. I went with him a few times and liked it. just like he said, there were gays galore holding hands and a gay choir lead. It seemed so cool. unfortunately, i moved to texas and will probably never find anything like that over here. My family is extremely Catholic. Despite trying them to persuade them that the Church is evil, they still attend b/c it's already ingrained in them and what other church would they possibly go to? Most catholic churches(at least in big cities) have a Dignity (not sponsored by the church) group so most of them at least at the local level are freely accepting gay $$$ and allowing them to attend.
Are there really churches that BAN gays? Not churches that say being gay is bad, or a sin, or socially ostracise them, but actually stop people at the door and tell them that they cannot come in?
That is pretty amazing to me.
I was raised in the Seventh Day Adventist church, they won't stop you at the door but when an all gay congregation wanted to have their own SDA church, they went to court and stopped them from displaying the SDA name...because they were gay...that seems pretty clear to me...they are not welcome. In day to day practice when a gay person realizes or comes out, they tend to leave the area...SDAs like to congregate in towns so that all you see are people of the same faith.
That kind of judgemental behavoir has no place in a group that professes to follow Christian ideals..."judge not that ye be not judged", the whole idea that if a poor man comes to your door asking for food, helping him is like helping Jesus...how does that fit with holy rollers who treat gay people like they are sinners...its just not your place to judge...
Thanks celticlady for the clarity - the thread goes on, and I was really not sure where to put the question. I think I may start a new thread with it.
It is very frustrating for me in a liberal church to find that all discussion of the family issues becomes about accepting gays - and not about the family issues. I like being part of an inclusive church, but sometimes I feel excluded because I am not focused on advocacy, just trying to get over this and find resources and understanding.
Unitarian, Episcopal, Methodist all have gay participants. One Unitarian Church in Richmond VA has a huge banner stating marriage is a civil right. I never had understood this big to do, but go waste your time instead of dealing with child poverty. If half the money and energy spent on hating gays were spent on after school tutoring, fixing up class rooms, fixing the grounds so $ could be spent on education and not maintainance, this would be a better country for everyone. Of course the story of David and Jonathan is the one of the most homoerotic story there is. Again, go back to the origional Hebrew or if need be at least the Greek where it is pretty explicit.
I wonder why the list of choices didn't include: If my church started to discriminate against gays I'd go to a different church. That seems like it should have been one of the choices if you're going to include every option. As a non churchgoer and not gay none of this really affects me in any way but I don't like to see people discriminated against for any reason and I noticed the choices don't include anything that's actually supportive of gay people.
Dallas has the largest gay church in the world, The Cathedral of Hope.
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However, I have a question. Does anyone think that it is possible, that for some people, it is a choice; and for others, it is not? I ask simply because your experience tells you it is, yet Jabogitlu feels just as strongly that it isn't. Perhaps that's a peculiar question, but I have to wonder, why in the world would all gay people choose to be gay, just to "flaunt" a "sin" to everyone else, or to "challenge" God? (I know that I didn't get pregnant, with my first child, out of wedlock, just to challenge anyone, least of all, my Creator). Given the fact that so many gay people are shunned by much of their communities, by the Christian church, by their families, etc., it just doesn't seem as though it would be worth all that, just to thumb their nose at society and their Creator.
I don't know if I am making sense with my question, but I would like someone to answer it, if that is possible.
