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I won't deny there was a "scary" element to some Catholic imagery for me, but as a child there was definitely wondrousness to it. Singing loudly at church and thinking a loving person beyond the mundane was happy with how much I cared for him. Having someone when you're alone to talk to or being able to talk to someone about things too private to discuss with others. Comfort when you're ill or in a situation beyond control. Telling stories of angels and imagining someday you'll fly. Or see things you will never see in this life. Or just being connected to something that predates and transcends your parents. (I think that part can appeal to many kids)
It's very sad if all you were given from it was terror, constant judgement, and scary stuff. Some Christians really do miss out on things and raise their kids wrong.
No, it was "good cop, bad cop" sort of psycho-drama. They did present both sides. Of course they paint a picture of glorious and wonderous things, right before they tell you you'll never get to see them if you weren't completely obedient. And if you had a "free spirit", you'll surely land in a hell of eternal damnation.
Talking to your own special angels? Having someone (fictitious, of course) to talk to when times are tough? Well Holy mother of god, how do we atheists manage to get along without that?
Through realistic thinking and not shirking from reality, and not hoping someone else will take care of it all for us? And then blessing God if it works out or muttering "God works in mysterious ways!" if it doesn't? Yikes. That's what you want us to teach our innocent children? Complete intellectual dependance and dishonesty? Double YIKES!
Now ain't that special? Are we atheists the only ones intellectually capable of seeing this for what it is? Really?
One can only wonder what that sort of internal guilt-ridden complex does to one's self-esteem, or one's ability to learn about other possible and less mumbo-jumbo perspectives later in life, when your mind has, supposedly, matured.
Oh wait: we know, in the case of the majority of Christians, exactly what it's achieved, don't we?
No, it was "good cop, bad cop" sort of psycho-drama. They did present both sides. Of course they paint a picture of glorious and wonderous things, right before they tell you you'll never get to see them if you weren't completely obedient. And if you had a "free spirit", you'll surely land in a hell of eternal damnation.
Talking to your own special angels? Having someone (fictitious, of course) to talk to when times are tough? Well Holy mother of god, how do we atheists manage to get along without that?
It's more than that. We were talking about children so I was stating the appealing things as a child. Besides it's arguable you don't do so well without even these things. Hence you have higher levels of life dissatisfaction, neuroses, and suicide.
Plus I was never taught that perfection was expected or even really possible. Certainly not that being conventional or even agreeable was always necessary. The saints included people who talked to mice, lived on pillars, in caves, in trees, wrote bawdy literature, criticized Popes, traveled the world, were women pretending to be men (some nun who lived as a monk, forget the name), wrote songs, poetry, novels, etc. In principle a saintly Catholic could smoke, drink, gamble, and be sexually active. Granting if all that is done in moderation and the sex is within marriage. (In fact I know strongly traditional Catholics who argue that marijuana, if used in moderation and not to an extent that impairs your work or family life, is licit. It's only wrong because it's illegal and you can't break the law merely for personal pleasure) Disobedience could be good, but it had to be for a just purpose. Disobedience for disobedience sake is just childishness.
To make it explicit to truly be a good Christian is often to be unconventional. There is certainly nothing particularly conventional about quitting your job, changing your name, and becoming a wandering homeless person who helps others. However that's kind-of what many of the early Christians did. A man I read about once chose to live as a homeless person to minister to them and that's very Christian. It's also deemed loco to most people as he's educated and could live a middle-class life.
Yeah there's obedience, but that's part of living in a society and being an adult. Even if you're self-employed you're going to have to obey the laws and pay your taxes or face consequences.
Here's one for you. Start with story of ER and Onan.
I can guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of Christians have NO idea who either of those people are and the silly biblical story surrounding them. Perfect story of the boogeyman in the closet told by ancient folks to make sure social mores were adhered to by throwing "god" into the story for effect.
One older lady used to exhort me to take my children to church so they could "learn about de lawd" (Jamaican accent). I thought about it last night and this is puzzling to me. Why is up to me to teach my children or to take them to church to 'learn' about the supposed single greatest and most powerful force in the universe who can do anything? What if I want to teach them about a go I prefer, such as Brahma, Virachoa, Ormazd or Allah? What if what I teach them is about a biblical god who [allegedly] ordered killings, apparent rape and genocide?
On an additional thought, why do we read in the Old Testament the exhortation for parents to instruct children in the ways of the lord when said 'lord' was supposedly right there in the midst of the early Israelites doing his deeds?
Why does this sound highly suspect to me?
God wants parrents to know him for themselves. Then to teach the children about him. He doesn't want them to get their information from any other place than a personal relationship with him.
BTW the biblical God is against man killing, raping, genocide, etc.
BTW the biblical God is against man killing, raping, genocide, etc.
Now that is interesting to say the least. Lemme guess, you never read the OT? I'll let others do the quotes but man you are sure missing what your faith espouses.
BTW the biblical God is against man killing, raping, genocide, etc.
(Leviticus 20:10) "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
(Numbers 16:32-35) "And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense."
(Exodus 12:29-30) "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."
(I Chronicles 21:14) "So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men."
(II Chronicles 14:12)So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled.
(Exodus 11:4-5) "And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts."
(Psalms 68:21-23) "But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such a one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same."
(I Samuel 6:19) "And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
(Deuteronomy 13: 5) "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..."
(Deuteronomy 13:8-9) "Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."
(Deuteronomy 13:15) "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."
(I Samuel 15:2-3) Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
(Numbers 31:16-18) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
(Isaiah 13:15-16) "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."
(Genesis 9:5-6) "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made the man."
(Ezekiel 9:5-6) "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."
(Psalms 58:10) "The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."
(Exodus 32:27) "And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."
(Luke 19:27) "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
(Leviticus 20:9) "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."
(Numbers 15:32-36) "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."
There's your God of love, compassion, mercy and forgiveness for you NIKK. It's not the God you want him to be because you picture a kind, wonderful, loving benevolent God who loves you more than himself or his own son. But that's NOT the God of the Bible. That's the God of your mind. What you're doing is trying to morph the Bible to fit your personal imagined image of God
There are a few ways to look at this in relation to Nikk's objection:
1. There REALLY is a god and he CLEARLY commanded horrible things as mentioned in the O.T.
2. There is a "god" and the Jews casually and liberally sprinkled him into their oral and eventual written history (real and imagined) to justify their evils and make themselves into more than they were.
3. There is NO god who commanded ANY of the things in the Old Testament. Just pure fabricated myth.
Nikk wants to pick the first HALF of #1 while denying the second half and he can't pick numbers 2 and 3.
God wants parrents to know him for themselves. Then to teach the children about him. He doesn't want them to get their information from any other place than a personal relationship with him.
BTW the biblical God is against man killing, raping, genocide, etc.
How do you know what god wants? Children should not blindly be made to accept what they are told, even by a parent. A parent should teach their children to think for themselves, examine both sides of the issue...God vs no God, then they can decide for themselves, anything else is brainwashing.
There are a few ways to look at this in relation to Nikk's objection:
1. There REALLY is a god and he CLEARLY commanded horrible things as mentioned in the O.T.
2. There is a "god" and the Jews casually and liberally sprinkled him into their oral and eventual written history (real and imagined) to justify their evils and make themselves into more than they were.
3. There is NO god who commanded ANY of the things in the Old Testament. Just pure fabricated myth.
Nikk wants to pick the first HALF of #1 while denying the second half and he can't pick numbers 2 and 3.
At times I'd say I lean toward 2, but maybe not in the way you mean. I think they tended to see everything as being God's instruction or will or Plan. So if they got attacked it was God punishing them for something and if they attacked it was God's command. If this were the case it doesn't make them particularly unique or notable. Many peoples at that time believed wars or plagues or pestilence was caused by "The gods" or spiritual forces. (In certain parts of Asia some blamed vengeful ancestors or the Heavens)
I even remember seeing some play where an Orthodox rabbi and a secular Jew got in a fight because the rabbi indicated that the Holocaust was "God's Plan" or even a punishment for some wickedness. (The rabbi was not happy to come to this conclusion, but seemed to feel it was inevitable) Outside of fiction I think that perspective is very rare, but in some respects it almost surprises me it is rare.
Not sure if I see the Old Testament that way, but I think I have at times. Mostly I read the "Wisdom literature" when I read the Old Testament. Also that it's the story of the Jewish people before Christ.
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