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This is based on a premise that some people KNOW that they are going to die really soon. It is also based on a person would be truly believing that there was a god and a heaven and a Jesus Christ in the final minute of their life and have enough fear of death to truly believe.
So which makes more sense:
I have to live my entire life doing god's will and loving him and believing that Jesus died on a cross for my sins, to be sent to a wonderful heaven in the end.
Or
I live my life how I want to live it and a minute before I die I ask god to forgive me for my sins and I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and guess what? I get to go to that same wonderful heaven.
god did say something to the effect of it is never to late to ask for forgiveness.
I think most Christians would complain about how it wouldn't be fair that someone can live their life away from god and ask to be saved right before they die and get into heaven. But why would they really be mad? Because they were just a slave to an unproven god and I wasn't.
So here is one more question. Say in 2 days I go to into a coma. Now say that I don't believe in god or heaven when I went into the coma. What happens to me when I die if I never got a chance to ask god to be in my life? I am sure that my parents would be praying for me and I am sure that when I died they would believe that they prayed enough to believe that even though I was in a coma, I heard them pray for me and I came to believe in everlasting life.
And please....no bible quotes to try to help you answer the question. I didn't use any.
So here is one more question. Say in 2 days I go to into a coma. Now say that I don't believe in god or heaven when I went into the coma. What happens to me when I die if I never got a chance to ask god to be in my life? I am sure that my parents would be praying for me and I am sure that when I died they would believe that they prayed enough to believe that even though I was in a coma, I heard them pray for me and I came to believe in everlasting life.
And please....no bible quotes to try to help you answer the question. I didn't use any.
Being "saved" is a process and it doesn't come about merely because someone on their death bed had an epiphany.
What people need to know is that it is our "soul" that needs to be purified in order for "salvation" to occur. A mere mental belief doesn't accomplish this, but our belief helps to get the purification started.
Let's assume this... that our souls are clean and pure when we are born, but during our lifetimes we either engage in sinful behavior or sin is committed against us... and all this sin causes encrustments, or dark spots, that glob onto our souls... changing it from clear to black.
As an analogy, take a cup of water... this clear water represents our soul... then add to it a tea bag, which represents sin... notice the longer the tea bag is left in the water, the darker it becomes.
So what we need to do to become "saved" is to reverse the process... and we need to do something that will clean off the dark encrustments. And this process can be done by two different ways... either purifying our natural love, which is by asking our Heavenly Father for forgiveness and going through a very long transformation of spiritual development... or we can ask our Heavenly Father to purify our souls with His Divine Love, which is a faster transformation of soul development.
Going back to our cup of water... you can take the cup of dark tea and keep adding creme until the tea is totally unrecognizable as tea. God's Divine Love is the creme... let's say you are already sinless and your soul is purified with the natural love... then add a teaspoon of sugar (God's Divine Love) and what do you get with a little stir... a clear cup of water with an added benefit of sweetness... the substance of the water is now changed.
The belief that Jesus died on the cross to save our sins is nothing more than a belief and doesn't bring about a purification of our souls.
Being "saved" is a process and it doesn't come about merely because someone on their death bed had an epiphany.
What people need to know is that it is our "soul" that needs to be purified in order for "salvation" to occur. A mere mental belief doesn't accomplish this, but our belief helps to get the purification started.
Let's assume this... that our souls are clean and pure when we are born, but during our lifetimes we either engage in sinful behavior or sin is committed against us... and all this sin causes encrustments, or dark spots, that glob onto our souls... changing it from clear to black.
As an analogy, take a cup of water... this clear water represents our soul... then add to it a tea bag, which represents sin... notice the longer the tea bag is left in the water, the darker it becomes.
So what we need to do to become "saved" is to reverse the process... and we need to do something that will clean off the dark encrustments. And this process can be done by two different ways... either purifying our natural love, which is by asking our Heavenly Father for forgiveness and going through a very long transformation of spiritual development... or we can ask our Heavenly Father to purify our souls with His Divine Love, which is a faster transformation of soul development.
Going back to our cup of water... you can take the cup of dark tea and keep adding creme until the tea is totally unrecognizable as tea. God's Divine Love is the creme... let's say you are already sinless and your soul is purified with the natural love... then add a teaspoon of sugar (God's Divine Love) and what do you get with a little stir... a clear cup of water with an added benefit of sweetness... the substance of the water is now changed.
The belief that Jesus died on the cross to save our sins is nothing more than a belief and doesn't bring about a purification of our souls.
But who is to say how long this "process" is for each person. Would it make a difference if I said that a doctor diagnosed me with cancer and said I have 2 months to live? Could I go through the process in that amount of time? If so then why can't I do that same process in 1 day or 1 minute?
There are two incidents that support what I am talking about.
When I originally went to church someone knelled before me and asked me to repeat the following:
"Lord Jesus, I am a sinner. But I believe that you died upon the cross for
me. That you shed your precious blood for the forgiveness of my sin.
And I believe that on the third day, you rose from the dead, and went to
Heaven to prepare a place for me. I accept you now as my Savior, my
Lord, my God, my friend. Come into my heart, Lord Jesus, and set me
free from my sin. And, because you are my Savior, Jesus, "I shall not
die, but have everlasting life". "
According to that if I truly believe what I just said then nothing else needs to be done and I am going to enjoy everlasting life with God when I die.
People go to hospitals and try to get people they know who are dying and have not "found the lord" to say that prayer before they die so that they may know god's grace. They are apparently not trying to get these people to go through a process of any type, they just believe that if you have faith in that paragraph, then you are going to heaven.
It is amazing how something is even written as the way it should be and then someone else comes along and now changes the rules so that people have to actually go through some "process" to be with god after death.
But who is to say how long this "process" is for each person. Would it make a difference if I said that a doctor diagnosed me with cancer and said I have 2 months to live? Could I go through the process in that amount of time? If so then why can't I do that same process in 1 day or 1 minute?
It's different for everybody... as it depends on the accumulation of sin on our souls. This is a process that removes the bad feelings in our memories that come to us with sin. It would be nice if it could be done in an instant, but such doesn't seem to be the case... obviously as soon as someone knows about the process, getting it started the sooner the better is a good thing.
And keep in mind that this process is ongoing after we pass on to the next world, and if it isn't even started while we're alive, it can begin over there. The reason why it's good to know this now is to get the ball rolling so that when we first find ourselves in our new surroundings, it will be as wonderful as possible, but the first place won't be our last... as there are degrees of progression in the spirit world.
Quote:
There are two incidents that support what I am talking about. When I originally went to church someone knelled before me and asked me to repeat the following: "Lord Jesus, I am a sinner. But I believe that you died upon the cross for me. That you shed your precious blood for the forgiveness of my sin. And I believe that on the third day, you rose from the dead, and went to Heaven to prepare a place for me. I accept you now as my Savior, my Lord, my God, my friend. Come into my heart, Lord Jesus, and set me free from my sin. And, because you are my Savior, Jesus, "I shall not die, but have everlasting life". "
Well, one of the first problems with the prayer is that Jesus doesn't come into our hearts. What comes when we pray to our Heavenly Father is His Divine Love and this is delivered to our souls by His Holy Spirit... His messenger. I would take a guess that many Christians possess God's Divine Love, but they are misnaming it as being Jesus.
The second obvious problem is that he didn't die for our sins as this is a preposterous super-duper figment of some earlier Bible writer's vivid imagination and common sense would indicate that something of this magnitude just isn't possible. It isn't the way our Heavenly Father operates as He never goes against His own Laws. What did our Father say to Abraham? No more human sacrifice. So does it makes sense then that He would have His loving son sacrificed? Absolutely not.
Quote:
According to that if I truly believe what I just said then nothing else needs to be done and I am going to enjoy everlasting life with God when I die. People go to hospitals and try to get people they know who are dying and have not "found the lord" to say that prayer before they die so that they may know god's grace. They are apparently not trying to get these people to go through a process of any type, they just believe that if you have faith in that paragraph, then you are going to heaven.
You and a lot of people believe this... what helps right now is to establish a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father... when you have done this then you will know.
Quote:
It is amazing how something is even written as the way it should be and then someone else comes along and now changes the rules so that people have to actually go through some "process" to be with god after death.
Let's say that everyone in the whole world suddenly believed in Jesus and they repeated the sinner's prayer... would sin then be abolished from the face of the earth? No. How many people say this prayer and the next day do something sinful? If Jesus saves us one day, then wouldn't it seem logical that our sins are removed and we'll never sin again. Isn't the whole point of being saved that we are free from future sinning... not just those sins we've committed in the past.
This is based on a premise that some people KNOW that they are going to die really soon. It is also based on a person would be truly believing that there was a god and a heaven and a Jesus Christ in the final minute of their life and have enough fear of death to truly believe.
So which makes more sense:
I have to live my entire life doing god's will and loving him and believing that Jesus died on a cross for my sins, to be sent to a wonderful heaven in the end.
Or
I live my life how I want to live it and a minute before I die I ask god to forgive me for my sins and I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and guess what? I get to go to that same wonderful heaven.
god did say something to the effect of it is never to late to ask for forgiveness.
I think most Christians would complain about how it wouldn't be fair that someone can live their life away from god and ask to be saved right before they die and get into heaven. But why would they really be mad? Because they were just a slave to an unproven god and I wasn't.
So here is one more question. Say in 2 days I go to into a coma. Now say that I don't believe in god or heaven when I went into the coma. What happens to me when I die if I never got a chance to ask god to be in my life? I am sure that my parents would be praying for me and I am sure that when I died they would believe that they prayed enough to believe that even though I was in a coma, I heard them pray for me and I came to believe in everlasting life.
And please....no bible quotes to try to help you answer the question. I didn't use any.
Well You can think that way...
And I can tell you from scripture....you do not recieve salvation by faith alone!
And you do not recieve salvation by works alone...
But by both the kingdom of God is before you as once given, or being worthy enough to have it restored and given to those who will tend and keep it.....But look at the world they are making now...polluted, full of death, war, hatred, oppression, corruption, lies and liars..pointing the fingers at eachother, and saying Kill for $atan!
Are these the kinds of people God wants in his Paradise?,,,should we support them and be tied to their sins?...think about that!
So if you sin all your life turned away from God, disputing and denying those who brought you the good news of God and Jesus, and you continually denie, and repute, and never do anything to resolve or comply to God...and at the last minute of your life you turn to God...hmmm would God not give you the same measure as you gave him?
So listen...Do...and believe now!...while you still have a world to prove it in...cause sure enough as the sun goes around its cycles...time is running out for you and all who think that way!
Jesus said "those who lose their life because of me, shall find it"
That means those who follow and do what the Father of creation has said, and Jesus said///...not what I think, nor what you think...or anyone else thinks....
try that now while you still have a chance...
Stand out of her sins my people, so you do not take part in her punishment!!!...and salvation is yours once you fulfill what God asked of us all!...but very few ever do correctly...sinlessly!
see?...Jesus did not die For our sins...Jesus died because of our sins!...and before he Died he said forgive them they know not what they do!.....Now we know!...SIN!
And what did he say to the prostitute?..."Do no more sin and be forgiven!"...SO the sinner does not enter!...but one who repents, and does the fulfilling of God's words, and his will, and repents (cause he can now see the truth of that garden principle), and honours God by his sinless service of tending and keeping the garden well....they are the Gold God wants!
For why would God say Genesis 2:15? and give us all the green plants and trees and living things to take care of?...because he is testing us for the real kingdom...if we cannot do here what he says to do...and we destroy it completely....then why would he want those who did that...to come into the real kingdom?
Aaannnd here they come; the "provisos" and "whertofors".
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009
Being "saved" is a process and it doesn't come about merely because someone on their death bed had an epiphany.
Yes, in fact it does. That's been preached for centuries, and is most often affirmed in battlefield sacraments performed by Army chaplains. That exact prayer, listed below by inspiringmind, is supposed to provide protection and admission. You don't get to have a "better" position with God solely because you "believed" longer. What now, belief seniority? Favored in-cue positioning due to life-long spoutations? How, exactly, would this favored position be recognized? I can see the infighting up there now: "I've been a Christian longer! God loves me better! See: I'm sitting next to Him this evening; Nyah nyah!"
What people need to know is that it is our "soul" that needs to be purified in order for "salvation" to occur. A mere mental belief doesn't accomplish this, but our belief helps to get the purification started.
Let's assume this... that our souls are clean and pure when we are born, but during our lifetimes we either engage in sinful behavior or sin is committed against us... and all this sin causes encrustments, or dark spots, that glob onto our souls... changing it from clear to black.
As an analogy, take a cup of water... this clear water represents our soul... then add to it a tea bag, which represents sin... notice the longer the tea bag is left in the water, the darker it becomes.
So what we need to do to become "saved" is to reverse the process... and we need to do something that will clean off the dark encrustments. And this process can be done by two different ways... either purifying our natural love, which is by asking our Heavenly Father for forgiveness and going through a very long transformation of spiritual development...
(Ahhh: a conditional add-on!)
...or we can ask our Heavenly Father to purify our souls with His Divine Love, which is a faster transformation of soul development.
(So... it's like buying a car, huh? Time-saving optional features? How do you pay for these upgrades?)
Going back to our cup of water... you can take the cup of dark tea and keep adding creme until the tea is totally unrecognizable as tea. God's Divine Love is the creme... let's say you are already sinless and your soul is purified with the natural love... then add a teaspoon of sugar (God's Divine Love) and what do you get with a little stir... a clear cup of water with an added benefit of sweetness... the substance of the water is now changed.
Oh Lord, save me from this metaphor, which she is conveniently making up as she goes along. In fact, nowhere is this process defined as "the Way to Salvation"!
The belief that Jesus died on the cross to save our sins is nothing more than a belief and doesn't bring about a purification of our souls.
Not what was said or asked, SCA. The question is, can you successfully request salvation at or near your point of death, assuming it's heart-felt. The answer, again, from the church and chaplains everywhere, is of course you can. And God will then honor and accept you and place you in His family of loved ones, all being exactly equal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inspiringmind
But who is to say how long this "process" is for each person. Would it make a difference if I said that a doctor diagnosed me with cancer and said I have 2 months to live? Could I go through the process in that amount of time? If so then why can't I do that same process in 1 day or 1 minute?
You can, of course. The rest is just wishful fantasizing and story-telling; an attempt to get you to convert earlier in your life, since you apparently get Brownie Points for seniority! False promises indeed!
There are two incidents that support what I am talking about.
When I originally went to church someone knelled before me and asked me to repeat the following:
"Lord Jesus, I am a sinner. But I believe that you died upon the cross for
me. That you shed your precious blood for the forgiveness of my sin.
And I believe that on the third day, you rose from the dead, and went to
Heaven to prepare a place for me. I accept you now as my Savior, my
Lord, my God, my friend. Come into my heart, Lord Jesus, and set me
free from my sin. And, because you are my Savior, Jesus, "I shall not
die, but have everlasting life". "
According to that if I truly believe what I just said then nothing else needs to be done and I am going to enjoy everlasting life with God when I die.
You got it. Assuming, of course, that this afterlife thing is a fact and not just a fantasy. But if you buy into Pascal's silly illogical Wager, then you might as well hold off on dedicating yourself to fantasies until the last possible moment, and then go for it, all heartfelt and everything!
It is amazing how something is even written as the way it should be and then someone else comes along and now changes the rules so that people have to actually go through some "process" to be with god after death.
You got it. Truly amazing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Les
Well You can think that way...
And I can tell you from scripture....you do not recieve salvation by faith alone!
Oh-oh!
And you do not recieve salvation by works alone...
Double oh-oh. So, I can't Get There by heartfelt prayer, belief or sacrifice? Well then, how much do I gotta spend? Do they take American Express™? After all, at the last minute, I'd hardly care what I put on The Card.
So if you sin all your life turned away from God, disputing and denying those who brought you the good news of God and Jesus, and you continually denie, and repute, and never do anything to resolve or comply to God...and at the last minute of your life you turn to God...hmmm would God not give you the same measure as you gave him?
That's the story, yep: God loves us all, especially those who come to their spiritual senses and turn to Him. You're just hopping to cut in to the head of that Heaven's Gate lineup.
So listen...Do...and believe now!...while you still have a world to prove it in...cause sure enough as the sun goes around its cycles...time is running out for you and all who think that way!
Jesus said "those who lose their life because of me, shall find it"
That means those who follow and do what the Father of creation has said, and Jesus said///...not what I think, nor what you think...or anyone else thinks....
try that now while you still have a chance... (implied threat)
Stand out of her sins my people, so you do not take part in her punishment!!!...and salvation is yours once you fulfill what God asked of us all!...but very few ever do correctly...sinlessly!
see?...Jesus did not die For our sins...Jesus died because of our sins!...and before he Died he said forgive them they know not what they do!.....Now we know!...SIN!
Saaayyy... this wouldn't be open proselytizing would it? what exactly does it have to do with the OP? It sounds, or reeks, of preaching via threats and intimidation, rather than open debate.
Sir Les; you make no points here, but rather you chase them off with such ministrations.
And what did he say to the prostitute?..."Do no more sin and be forgiven!"...SO the sinner does not enter!...but one who repents, and does the fulfilling of God's words, and his will, anf repents, and honours God by his sinless service of tending and keeping the garden well....they are the Gold God wants!
Yep. Last-minute heart-felt repentations and prayer will get you in. Reliably. That is: if there's even a portal! You be the judge.
Not what was said or asked, SCA. The question is, can you successfully request salvation at or near your point of death, assuming it's heart-felt. The answer, again, from the church and chaplains everywhere, is of course you can. And God will then honor and accept you and place you in His family of loved ones, all being exactly equal.
I know people want a quick fix on everything... instant gratification here it comes... but please if this miracle of miracles should happen, then that person's soul was sinless to begin with.
What Christians and others believe as salvation and going to Heaven is only a part of the story... as there are many spheres of light and love in Heaven... to obtain true salvation and immortality to reach the ultimate highest Celestial Heavens... our souls must be at-one with our Heavenly Father in His Love... and just asking for forgiveness of our sins on our death bed doesn't make this happen... we must receive God's Divine Love and this involves going through the process of soul development, however, long or short the time period is.
This is based on a premise that some people KNOW that they are going to die really soon. It is also based on a person would be truly believing that there was a god and a heaven and a Jesus Christ in the final minute of their life and have enough fear of death to truly believe.
So which makes more sense:
I have to live my entire life doing god's will and loving him and believing that Jesus died on a cross for my sins, to be sent to a wonderful heaven in the end.
Or
I live my life how I want to live it and a minute before I die I ask god to forgive me for my sins and I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and guess what? I get to go to that same wonderful heaven.
god did say something to the effect of it is never to late to ask for forgiveness.
I think most Christians would complain about how it wouldn't be fair that someone can live their life away from god and ask to be saved right before they die and get into heaven. But why would they really be mad? Because they were just a slave to an unproven god and I wasn't.
So here is one more question. Say in 2 days I go to into a coma. Now say that I don't believe in god or heaven when I went into the coma. What happens to me when I die if I never got a chance to ask god to be in my life? I am sure that my parents would be praying for me and I am sure that when I died they would believe that they prayed enough to believe that even though I was in a coma, I heard them pray for me and I came to believe in everlasting life.
And please....no bible quotes to try to help you answer the question. I didn't use any.
The answer here divides into two divisions:
FIRST:
Jesus did not die on the cross; he was saved and released to die some time later on at his death appointment, so his body was buried and his soul went up to heaven to the kingdom of heavens in the neighborhood of his Lord.
And he did not come to save people in the way that some Christians assert; no, he came to fulfill the will of his Lord and convey the message as was he commanded by God Most Gracious. So the one that followed the apostle Jesus was saved, and the one that disobeyed him and remained as Jew, lost.
SECOND:
The repentance at the time of death is not accepted; man has to repent before the death is due.
The explanation:
(God surely accepts the repentance of those who do evil while being ignorant, then turn in repentance soon afterwards;
it is these whose repentance God shall accept; surely, God is All-Knowing [and] All-Wise.
The [accepted] repentance is not of those who [go on] doing evil until, when death attends upon anyone of them, he says: "I have now repented";
nor yet of those who die while being unbelievers. For such We have prepared a painful doom [in the afterlife.])
I'm going to give you a straight-to-the-point answer based off of your title. No. In my opinion anyway, no. Absolutely not. God would see right through that pretentious falseness that we all seem to suffer from. How in the world would you not have a chance to ask God to be in your life when you would ask him 1 minute before you die? That's nonsense! It's totally fake. It's fake to who you were as a person and it's fake to God as someone (you) who knew all along but refused to accept him into their life. You knew about him but refused to accept him until the very last minute you would stop breathing life on this Earth? No way Jose. You could try that and see what will happen but it will be in vain in my opinion.
And no, I wouldn't be angry. If you went to heaven, that's a cause for rejoicing! However, I don't think you would get off so easy based on all the comments you had about God and the idea of a God while you were here on Earth. All those things count against you. But the main reason I wouldn't be angry is because I wouldn't care. I would care more about myself getting into heaven than spending precious time wondering to myself why you did.
Last edited by allenk893; 05-15-2010 at 03:45 PM..
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Aaannnd here they come; the "provisos" and "whertofors".
