Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Which is true if our purpose on earth is to enjoy life and be free of trials and tribulations. We are here for a purpose. That purpose is to learn and to be tested by choices and hardships. We need hardships and injustices as the fertilizer to grow. We can not overcome injustices unless they are here for us to face.
I understand how we could. I just don't understand why we should. Linking evil to suffering seems pretty logical. Should evil be linked to nothing at all, having no consequences? Or what should it be linked to instead?
The why is irrelevant, because if such a purported deity purportedly does so, then said purported deity is logically not omnibenevolent. The 'why' is not pertinent to the question of whether omnipotence and the allowance of evil/suffering is compatible with omnibenevolence. It's not.
And why wouldn't He link them? If God wants us to choose between good and evil, then we need to understand the consequences of both, and having both lead to the same consequences isn't going to help us differentiate between them. I believe that shooting someone in the arm is an evil act, and I believe this largely because I know it will cause this person to suffer. If shooting someone in the arm wouldn't cause them to suffer, then it would be difficult for me to determine that doing so is evil.
I understand how we could. I just don't understand why we should. Linking evil to suffering seems pretty logical. Should evil be linked to nothing at all, having no consequences? Or what should it be linked to instead?
It only seems logical to you because that is how things are, and does not consider how an all-powerful god could have designed things. It is also perfectly logical that whatever "good" comes from suffering, that exact same good could be accomplished without "suffering" given that an all-powerful god could have designed the universe that way. The fact that he chose suffering when it was completely unnecessary (because it could be done without suffering), shows that he was sadistic. What loving being would choose to put someone through suffering when there was another way to accomplish the exact same purposes/good without suffering. If there was no other way, then god is not all-powerful.
That purpose is to learn and to be tested by choices and hardships. We need hardships and injustices as the fertilizer to grow. We can not overcome injustices unless they are here for us to face.
If that is immutably true, then god is not all powerful. And it begs the question, who had the power to make it a universal rule that the only way to grow is through hardships, which rule is greater than god because he can only use that principle and not change it?
But, if you want to claim that god is all-powerful, then he could have designed us and designed life such that we could grow without hardships and injustices. And if he could do it (i.e., ensure our growth without suffering), he would not choose the path of suffering if he is all-loving. Remember his ability to accomplish the exact same ends, with or without suffering makes suffering unnecessary. If you can get the same results with or without, then you don't need the suffering. You cannot be all-loving and put people through unnecessary suffering.
If that is immutably true, then god is not all powerful. And it begs the question, who had the power to make it a universal rule that the only way to grow is through hardships, which rule is greater than god because he can only use that principle and not change it?
But, if you want to claim that god is all-powerful, then he could have designed us and designed life such that we could grow without hardships and injustices. And if he could do it (i.e., ensure our growth without suffering), he would not choose the path of suffering if he is all-loving. Remember his ability to accomplish the exact same ends, with or without suffering makes suffering unnecessary. If you can get the same results with or without, then you don't need the suffering. You cannot be all-loving and put people through unnecessary suffering.
Perhaps, we are human because we do face and overcome hardships . Yes, we could have been created as beings free from trials and tribulations, such as the Angels.
But for some reason we are human and all that we face is to play an active role in what we are to be. Yes life is a difficult test for all of us, even for those who live an apparent life of ease. We could have been created with complete knowledge of God(swt), and full of compassion for others but we are created with the need to learn and find them in a sink or swim environment. We all have the means and abilities to make the best of what we have and that is one of the things we have to learn to do. It is a rough school, but we all have within our means the ability to graduate. Life is not a gift to us, it is a challenge we must overcome. The gift is we have been given the opportunity to face these challenges.
The why is irrelevant, because if such a purported deity purportedly does so, then said purported deity is logically not omnibenevolent. The 'why' is not pertinent to the question of whether omnipotence and the allowance of evil/suffering is compatible with omnibenevolence. It's not.
If it leads to an overall increase in goodness, then it's quite compatible. If your definition of "omnibenevolence" includes the total refusal to permit anyone to suffer under any circumstances, then I would agree that God is not "omnibenevolent" per this definition. But I disagree with the definition, seeing God's omnibenevolence as being more concerned with what is best for us as a whole in the long run. If suffering allows me to see the results of evil more clearly, and makes me a more empathetic person, then I can understand why God allows me to suffer on occasion. And even if I can't understand in certain instances, the fault could well be with me, and not God. I don't need to fully understand God in order to believe in Him.
It only seems logical to you because that is how things are, and does not consider how an all-powerful god could have designed things. It is also perfectly logical that whatever "good" comes from suffering, that exact same good could be accomplished without "suffering" given that an all-powerful god could have designed the universe that way. The fact that he chose suffering when it was completely unnecessary (because it could be done without suffering), shows that he was sadistic. What loving being would choose to put someone through suffering when there was another way to accomplish the exact same purposes/good without suffering. If there was no other way, then god is not all-powerful.
The problem is that you can only say this for sure if you knew all of the factors involved, and knew everything that God was concerned about when He designed it all. You don't. Neither do I. Even if suffering isn't the only way to show us the consequences of evil, it could well be the most effective way. And there could be other factors involved in the decision that we haven't even considered, and perhaps even can't consider due to our limited understanding of everything involved.
Could God have made a universe without suffering? Of course. Would it ultimately be as good as this one, all things considered? You can't say for sure, and neither can I. But our inability to understand God isn't evidence that God isn't omnibenevolent.
The problem is that you can only say this for sure if you knew all of the factors involved, and knew everything that God was concerned about when He designed it all. You don't. Neither do I. Even if suffering isn't the only way to show us the consequences of evil, it could well be the most effective way. And there could be other factors involved in the decision that we haven't even considered, and perhaps even can't consider due to our limited understanding of everything involved.
Could God have made a universe without suffering? Of course. Would it ultimately be as good as this one, all things considered? You can't say for sure, and neither can I. But our inability to understand God isn't evidence that God isn't omnibenevolent.
I'm going to try a different approach, a mathematical/logic hybrid. Let's assign the value of X to the reason why God chose to create a universe with suffering as opposed to the infinite possibilities available to him. We don't know X and may never know X, and if the theologians are to be believed, our brains can't even comprehend X. That is ok, because all that is important is that God knows X. We can all agree that if god exist, he knows X, the reason who chose to create suffering.
If god is all-powerful, he could satisfy that identical X without creating suffering. Agreed? If he is all-powerful, he could do it. If you claim that he could not accomplish X, but by designing a universe with suffering in it, then you are also saying that god is not all-powerful. The only goal that could not be accomplished by an all-powerful god if suffering were not to exist is the goal that humans should suffer. It stands to reason that we cannot suffer if suffering did not exist. But if our suffering was the sole purpose of our suffering, if suffering were the value of X, then we have a sadistic god who has as a goal our suffering. But, if instead our suffering is not the goal, but only the means to a goal, then an all-powerful god could arrange to have that goal accomplished in some other way besides suffering.
The "significant good" that some claim comes through pain and could not be achieved in any other way, only applies to the current set-up god created. That significant good could be achieved in another way if god had set it up differently. But for some reason, X, he choose this way. My argument is that whatever X is, he could have accomplished it by a set up that did not include suffering if he indeed is all powerful (unless the value of X is simple to have us experience suffering, then he is a sadist). If the point was to have us suffer because... Whatever follows that "because" could be accomplished without suffering if god is all-powerful.
Suffering cannot be inseperable from free will to an all-powerful god. An all-powerful god, by definition, must have the power to create free will with or without the suffering option. Are you saying he can't? Then you are saying he is not all-powerful. God controls all the variables here, he can specify all the rules. There is nothing that "must be" for an all-powerful god.
If suffering has an inherent value, god gave it that value, and he could have given something else that value and made it inherent to it. God can accomplish the value of suffering without the suffering. He could train us solely with rewards and no punishments. He could do anything he wants, and I do mean anything.
Pain is not inseparable from pleasure to an all-powerful god. Why couldn't an all-powerful god separate them? He created them in the first place. He created the ingredients of life and could have made things come in pairs/opposites or singlely.
Give an all-powerful god enough credit. He is all-powerful (don't limit his power). Nothing is inherent unless he bestows it. Nothing is inseperable unless he makes it that way.
So, again, god could have accomplished X without creating a universe with suffering if he were all-powerful. EVERY benefit that we now get from suffering could have been achieved in an alternative universe that does not contain suffering. Therefore, there is NO reason for god to create a universe with suffering. A universe with suffering has no advantage over a universe that accomplishes all the same advantages but without suffering that an all-powerful god could have created. Therefore, from the perspective of all possibilities available to god, suffering has no purpose because everything god had in mind to accomplish could have been accomplished some other way. He choose to create suffering when he did not have to. That makes suffering superfluous. It is not pointless in our universe, but since he could have created a universe that accomplishes all the same goals without suffering, suffering is pointless in the grand scheme of things. So, god makes us suffer when there was no reason for it. That at minimum means he is not all-loving. If he is all-powerful, he cannot be all-loving since needless suffering exists, and all-suffering is needless because whatever god's grand purpose for suffering is, he could have done it without suffering.
And to take it one step further. If god is not all-powerful, then that means something comes before or is greater than him. Well, where did that something that pre-dates or is greater than God come from? At that point the theist who believes in a god that is not all-powerful is in the same position as an atheist - both wondering at the existence of things that do not appear to have a Creator.
And if one maintains the belief in an all-powerful god, then one must accept that god created needless suffering when he did not have to or for the sole purpose of us suffering. That means that he is a sadist, worse than Hitler or Stalin, etc.
Ahhhhhhh, the curse of the brain that won't shut-up!! Sheesh, I'm impressed at the thought put into what you wrote in the first two posts, I'm barn-swaggled. You said what you thought in so many creative ways, I read it carefully to see if you were repeating yourself and you weren't!! NOw that's impressive!!
Why argue the Omni's as if they were anything other than the product of human hubris demanding that God MUST possess these paradoxical Omni's or He is NOT sufficiently God? Who are we puny nothings to decide what God MUST be to qualify as our God? God just IS and God is far more than anything we morons could possibly conceive in our limited brains. The Omni's we created are self-contradicting BS, period! Everything we know tells us that ALL LIFE must develop to overcome and endure whatever the environment presents. During that process . . . there will be suffering, period. How do we know our God did NOT have to overcome and endure in a similar way. The arrogance of humanity boggles the mind.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What's the point?
