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Hey Hueff (not directed at or to answer Blue Hue),
Maybe it's not O.K. to say "I want to live till I'm 16, otherwise Satan is such and such" Never ending and always complaining that Satan is not all-powerful and all-hating.
we can put this on a more earthly scale by how some criminal psychopaths would make people think they are free or in a less bad situation only to take that away.
All the excuses for a "benevolent omnimax" deity (though an oxymoron), apply for a "malevolent omnimax" one. Most people take the Authoritarian approach, in that the Bully with the most power gets his way. Obviously, they would say "the most omnimax deity is the one who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong." And since they would think that nothing superior could come from something inferior, then this "most-powerful" deity is also the creator and/or original diety. Which makes YHWH twice as right . To these people, life is based on their own wishes and the rules and standards set out by the creatures they deem as "the most powerful" or "the first"... both in this case.
Personally, I disagree with you for the reasons I've already cited. Pain and joy operate independent of each other. In fact, on rare occasions one can experience both at the same time. The intensity of the joy we are feeling can be measured against the baseline of normality (which is neither painful or joyful); it need not be measured against the intensity of pain we have experienced. Tell me, do you think the opposite is true, that experiencing joy increases our capacity to feel pain?
Yes, I do think that experiencing joy increases our capacity to feel pain. You can only get your heart broken if you first open yourself up to love & care. As we learn new perspectives, we enhance our capacity for BOTH joy & pain. Have you ever considered that God... or the ultimate truth (of all perspectives) is beyond our ability to handle... which is why we invent illusional coping strategies to deal with the truth that is just too much to bear?
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If so, tell that to the poor kids who grow up half starving with abusive parents, etc, that have never felt joy in their lives - tell them that since they haven't experienced joy, they can't really be in that much pain.
How do you know they NEVER felt joy in their lives?
I've gone to places where such conditions existed & yet I found children still being able to find joy. We... especially as children... are resilient!
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One does not need to experience great joy to know great pain and one does not need to experience great pain to know great joy.
I'm not sure about that. I'd have to think about it more.
I can see what you mean that pain & joy can seeingly occur suddenly.
Yet, if you look closer at the experiences (depending on what type of joy & pain... let's assume we're referring to emotional- not physical- joy & pain). Then, we know that they don't just happen, but we start the process by thinking certain thoughts that produce certain feelings. There are 2 types of pain: clean pain & dirty pain. Clean pain is that which is the natural consequences of difficult things happening. Dirty pain is the EXTRA pain we inflict on ourselves by thinking & aching about the clean pain... being angry about being angry or being depressed about being depressed. Maybe there are 2 types of joy too... that which is based on unexpected pleasant surprises or a sudden appreciation for what is... & of the memory of joys or even the joy of realizing such joy. Maybe this is what is meant by the greatest commandment being to love God with all your might mind & strength. God is love/joy. How do you love love or love joy?
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But, our respective opinions on this matter do not damage my arguments about god not being able to be both all-powerful and all-loving at the same time.
If you are saying god is incapable of giving us joy without pain, then you are saying god is not all-powerful, because he cannot alter or replicate the relationship between the concepts pain and joy.
Wait a minute, Hueffenhardt. I didn't say that. What I mentioned is that God doesn't give us anything - we do! We create our reality (for the most part, unless we live under oppressed conditions - but even then we do to an extent). When we love or hate, we are feeling that within and thus also loving or hating ourselves. God/love/spirituality is always experienced within us. There is also such energy outside of us that affects us... & may make us feel out of control. Maybe we want to blame or lean on a belief of God, to try to gain back some of that sense of control or to feel that we can have influence. Yet, we are influential to an extent - especially in what we think, feel & do.
I like this saying, "God grant me the SERENITY to accept the things I cannot change, COURAGE to change the things I can, & WISDOM to know the difference."
Hueffendardt, who is God to you?
Are you basing your definition of God on traditionally twisted religious "articles of faith" - or are you thinking it through for yourself, based on what you know, understand & have experienced?
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This begs the question, who had the power to create the concepts joy and pain and establish a connection between the two that not even god could alter or replicate?
I'll give you a hint... many are typing on this forum right now!
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Why couldn't god say, experiencing the sunshine increases our capacity for joy, or any other such thing?
Because God isn't who you thought God was. God is energy... part of you, part of me, part of everything in this live world. Energy expended gets a certain type of reaction... When we think, say or do anything, it isn't necessarily right or wrong in itself - but may be productive or destructive in RELATION to circumstances. Like a note is only right or wrong in relation to other notes or timing. When we play a note that doesn't fit with circumstances (or we screw up somehow) & it's not the end of the world! We just keep trying until we get it right.... & that process of progress goes on & on.
Last edited by SuperSoul; 11-09-2011 at 03:25 PM..
Hueffenhardt,
The lack of love you see in the world is because of a lack of love in PEOPLE.
With the internet, we're becoming more aware of circumstances world-wide & with technology, we're becoming more powerful. When we realize horrific circumstances - what do we do about it? What about when we discover effects on ourselves or a loved one, of extreme abuse? What about when we discover the one who inflicted such abuse suffered even more? Can we then be both aware and loving?
"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding..." -Phil 4:7 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me, ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." - John 16:33 "For a man to conquer himself is the first & noblest of all victories." - Plato
We need to realize that everything we think, feel & do has effects on us and also that others affect us... and that "God would be doing exactly what you (& others) are doing if God were in your (or others) shoes." Truth happens. Overcoming the world starts with overcoming our own shame, anger, fears & hang-ups. We can't help others get over certain obstacles until we get over them ourselves. With compassion for ourselves & others, we can heal ourselves & others.
One more thing: When we've gotten sick & then heal, countless lives (bacterial or viral lives) were sacrificed so we could live. Who's to say we're better than other lives? We say it! Truth is in perspective... & the more perspectives (aka the eternal perspective) - the more truthful. I believe things work out in the big picture for GOoD. When we're actively seeking what's best - they'll work out sooner than later.
Last edited by SuperSoul; 11-09-2011 at 05:16 PM..
Hueffendardt, who is God to you?
Are you basing your definition of God on traditionally twisted religious "articles of faith" - or are you thinking it through for yourself, based on what you know, understand & have experienced?
I apologize I know this isn't a question directed toward me. But, it actually addresses a main point of the thread, that whatever dogma some people have, that says "God" is all-powerful and all-loving, is not true, and we know that because of thinking the logic through, in this case the logic Hueffenhardt has laid out incessantly in this thread, instead of just "taking on faith" a definition we were given from "articles of faith" or religious authorities.
If you believe that there are things God can't do, such as give us free will without suffering, then you do not believe God is all-powerful and this thread is not about your god.
I apologize I know this isn't a question directed toward me. But, it actually addresses a main point of the thread, that whatever dogma some people have, that says "God" is all-powerful and all-loving, is not true, and we know that because of thinking the logic through, in this case the logic Hueffenhardt has laid out incessantly in this thread, instead of just "taking on faith" a definition we were given from "articles of faith" or religious authorities.
If you believe that there are things God can't do, such as give us free will without suffering, then you do not believe God is all-powerful and this thread is not about your god.
Nice try....all powerful, all loving relative to who ? Man or God.
If you say power and love relative to man, then truly what the heck does man know about power and love....take a look around, aliens would think were nuts and its good thing they don't seem to exist, they would prob wipe us out for being stupid .
So...bring on the aliens and then instead of pain and suffering people can say.... if God really loved us there would be no aliens scarring us.
Theres just no sensible argument here at all except pain is ridiculous...well ya it is....you die from it....most of the suffering is caused by mans little idea to get what he wants at others expence.....work on that one and we'll be getting somewhere, maybe better perspectives as well....anyway I agree with huff and nozz in their theories but only relative to their specific thinking needs in this, temporary time ...not mine or what is fair in opinion to reality...to certain, that never works
Nice try....all powerful, all loving relative to who ? Man or God.
"Nice try." All-powerful is not a relative thing. It means there is nothing one cannot do, in any context. As with most arguments on this forum, it seems definitions are the hidden real argument.
"Nice try." All-powerful is not a relative thing. It means there is nothing one cannot do, in any context. As with most arguments on this forum, it seems definitions are the hidden real argument.
What is percieved is only what can be percieved including all that is all.
sorry
You skipped over where I said that we could know pleasure by contrasting it with normal. You don't have to contrast it with pain.
You cant't feel pleasure without ever having experienced pain.
Claiming otherwise would be the same as saying that people born without eyes should know the difference between purple and pink in which you assume that it is only normal to be able to see.
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But, all of this is opinion and we could argue until the cows come home over this, but it has no bearing on the validity of arguments that show that god cannot be both all-powerful and all-loving.
Nope I have actually experienced a depression in which I've become so numbed to my own emotions simply because I was desperate not to feel this emotional pain I had anymore. And for a while it kinda worked, I stopped feeling pain but the downside was that overtime I was unable to feel joy either.
What you call 'normal' is what I call balanced, but in order to be balanced you need to be able to feel pleasure and pain. Actually feeling joy and knowing that you should feel joy (because you don't feel pain) are 2 different things.
So claiming that love is possible without suffering is illogical.
Heck some people are so in love that they already 'suffer' the moment their loved one leaves the room.
Hey Hueff, pleasure and pain are sensed by different receptors, they are not related in any meaningful way, you don't need one for the other. don't believe uninformed gossip. Do the full research yourself.
Thank science, we were able to abandon the stagnating ideas of ancient uninformed ancestors.
The emotional area of the brain is highly correlated though, so maybe the cortex would not be able to bring to conscious joy without suffer... either way, you could add to your argument that another factor is that benevolent omnimax believers mostly also believe their pact with their god will grant them an eternal blissful life, ergo, another point in your argument showing that this "all-powerful" "all-loving" "currently allowing suffering" "will stop suffering at some point" are FOUR ideas that contradict each other even more, because it basically removes the "most-powerful but partly incapable position" and only leaves the desperate emotional theists with "completely in-understandble" as the "all-loving" quality of their omnimax invisible currently ineffective substance.
Hey Hueff, pleasure and pain are sensed by different receptors, they are not related in any meaningful way, you don't need one for the other.
That is like saying that in order to see colours you only need a brain and not eyes.
Anywayz, I still say that it is perfectly possible to be all-loving and allow suffering, simply because you can't love without suffering.
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. To these people, life is based on their own wishes and the rules and standards set out by the creatures they deem as "the most powerful" or "the first"... both in this case.
You cant't feel pleasure without ever having experienced pain.
Actually feeling joy and knowing that you should feel joy (because you don't feel pain) are 2 different things.
That is like saying that in order to see colours you only need a brain and not eyes.
