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Not only did God foresee the needs of the world, He had a plan prepared from day one.
So then...if it's all part of his plan, who should bear the responsibility?? If it is my plan to cut the brake pipes on your car so that you crash and that is exactly what happens, is it my fault or yours?
So then...if it's all part of his plan, who should bear the responsibility?? If it is my plan to cut the brake pipes on your car so that you crash and that is exactly what happens, is it my fault or yours?
Shalom Rafius,
G-d has Graciously offered all of us a choice...Life through the perfect work of His Christ, namely Jesus...or death. The responsibility of the choice you make is yours to bear.
We are not talking about suffering that is a result of a person's own choices. There is suffering that is clearly not caused by human actions, such as natural disasters. All you keep saying is that it's not God's fault, it's peoples', which obviously doesn't address the problem of non-human-caused suffering.
As I have mentioned numerous times, Adam's choice to disobey God, was also a choice that allowed Satan to have dominion over this earth. Satan is often the cause of many a natural disaster, not to mention the overall systemic effect of sin. Sin is like a virus that once allowed into an ecosystem, corrupts all aspects of it.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
So then...if it's all part of his plan, who should bear the responsibility?? If it is my plan to cut the brake pipes on your car so that you crash and that is exactly what happens, is it my fault or yours?
First of all, I never said that sin was part of His plan. I said that He had a plan for sin. There is a huge difference. When a football team takes to the field they have medical personnel on the sideline. Injury of their players is never part of their gameplan, however, they can forsesee the possibility of injuries and have the means to deal with them.
Secondly (and this is where God's love is truly made known) even though, it is clear that sin and its consequences are the result of the choice made by us (be it our individual choice or the choice that Adam made), God is the one that takes the ultimate responsibility for sin by taking the punishment we deserve and giving us the life He deserved. The cross was our punishment to bear yet He took it upon Himself to put on human flesh and suffer that which no being in existence has ever suffered; truly complete separation from God the Father. Christ endured the cross even though in His darkest hour He could not see beyond it. Christ made the decision to die the ultimate death so that you and I could have the choice of the ultimate life. God loved you enough to give up heaven for you, and was powerful enough to suffer the cross for you. For me, that is ALL the love and ALL the power I ever need.
Secondly (and this is where God's love is truly made known) even though, it is clear that sin and its consequences are the result of the choice made by us (be it our individual choice or the choice that Adam made), God is the one that takes the ultimate responsibility for sin by taking the punishment we deserve and giving us the life He deserved. The cross was our punishment to bear yet He took it upon Himself to put on human flesh and suffer that which no being in existence has ever suffered; truly complete separation from God the Father. Christ endured the cross even though in His darkest hour He could not see beyond it. Christ made the decision to die the ultimate death so that you and I could have the choice of the ultimate life. God loved you enough to give up heaven for you, and was powerful enough to suffer the cross for you.
According to a book that that has been shown to be nothing more than fable, fiction and fraud.
As I have mentioned numerous times, Adam's choice to disobey God, was also a choice that allowed Satan to have dominion over this earth. Satan is often the cause of many a natural disaster, not to mention the overall systemic effect of sin. Sin is like a virus that once allowed into an ecosystem, corrupts all aspects of it.
First of all, I never said that sin was part of His plan. I said that He had a plan for sin. There is a huge difference. When a football team takes to the field they have medical personnel on the sideline. Injury of their players is never part of their gameplan, however, they can forsesee the possibility of injuries and have the means to deal with them.
Secondly (and this is where God's love is truly made known) even though, it is clear that sin and its consequences are the result of the choice made by us (be it our individual choice or the choice that Adam made), God is the one that takes the ultimate responsibility for sin by taking the punishment we deserve and giving us the life He deserved. The cross was our punishment to bear yet He took it upon Himself to put on human flesh and suffer that which no being in existence has ever suffered; truly complete separation from God the Father. Christ endured the cross even though in His darkest hour He could not see beyond it. Christ made the decision to die the ultimate death so that you and I could have the choice of the ultimate life. God loved you enough to give up heaven for you, and was powerful enough to suffer the cross for you. For me, that is ALL the love and ALL the power I ever need.
So then if God didn't decide that when Adam ate the apple Satan would have dominion over the earth, who did? And why can't God stop Satan?
If a football coach was ALL-POWERFUL like your god-claim, he would surely prevent his football players from ever becoming injured regardless of what accidents happen on the field. The only reason he doesn't is because he is NOT all-powerful.
You say "(and this is where God's love is truly made known) even though, it is clear that sin and its consequences are the result of the choice made by us (be it our individual choice or the choice that Adam made),.."
I don't see how this is love, punishing children for the sins of a father. Adam's sin is not our sin, so why are we punished for it?
Would that be the choice whereby we either accept what's on offer of suffer an eternity of unbearable torture??
I don't think there is any lie that has done as much to mar the image of God, as the lie about the notion of eternal torture. That lie is predicated on the belief of the oldest lie and that oldest of lies is the lie that human beings have an "immortal soul". You can search scripture from cover to cover and nowhere will you ever see those two words together. This topic is really big enough for its own thread but if you would like to look at a biblically accurate explanation of hell check out The Truth About Hell - Does Hell Burn Forever?
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Originally Posted by Rafius
According to a book that that has been shown to be nothing more than fable, fiction and fraud.
That book has suffered through roughly 2000 years of all kinds of scrutiny, and of all the people on earth, those that feel about it as you do are in the stark minority. Study the book of Daniel along with a history book and tell me if it is full of fables. Ultimately, what you believe is up to you, God gives you a choice. I know many people from the not so bright to the most brilliant of doctors and scientists who have studied enough of scripture to know in their hearts that not only is the Biblical narrative true, it is the greatest story of love ever told.
You say that the book has been shown to be nothing more than fable, fiction, and fraud, and I agree that to those looking for fable, fiction, and fraud; that is all the bible will show them. However, for those who are in search of truth, the Bible will show them more truth than they could absorb in 10 lifetimes.
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
So then if God didn't decide that when Adam ate the apple Satan would have dominion over the earth, who did? And why can't God stop Satan?
If a football coach was ALL-POWERFUL like your god-claim, he would surely prevent his football players from ever becoming injured regardless of what accidents happen on the field. The only reason he doesn't is because he is NOT all-powerful.
You say "(and this is where God's love is truly made known) even though, it is clear that sin and its consequences are the result of the choice made by us (be it our individual choice or the choice that Adam made),.."
I don't see how this is love, punishing children for the sins of a father. Adam's sin is not our sin, so why are we punished for it?
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
You seem determined to see all these events as pre-planned, scripted events. You seem bent on refusing to acknowledge or understand how choice works. Love cannot exist in the absence of choice. God is Love. Therefore, choice is paramount in how God deals with all things. Who is more powerful, a tyrannical dictator who strips choice from his subjects, and rules with an iron fist, or a humble king who shows love and respect to those under him, who actually allows a person who challenges his authority, to be heard. You seem stuck on this notion that the term power, only applies to physical strength and ability, and has nothing to do with things such as wisdom, patience, understanding, and yes even love. What had more power, the physical brute force of the British empire, or the love that Ghandi had for his people and the desire to see them free? You see, the thing that the OP failed to see is that being all-loving is by default all-powerful, since there is no power greater than love.
Satan is a being with choice as well. You along with so many others have long asked that question of "why didn't/doesn't God just stop Satan, or destroy Satan", and it goes back to what I said about the connection between love and choice. We tend to ask questions like that from the perspective of feeble emotional minds stuck on a very narrow perspective on how things should be. We cannot fully understand having to make decisions based on time concepts such as eternity, or dealing with space concepts such as the expanse of the universe. When Satan challenged God's authority, God, with his infinite love and wisdom understood that Satan had to be dealt with in a way that was harmonious with love, for God is love. True love allows choice. If God were to have simply destroyed Satan on the spot, all who followed God from that point on would have done so out of fear. No being would feel free. God is dealing with Satan, in fact He won the ultimate victory against him at Calvary, but He is dealing with Satan in the only way an all-loving God could, and that is with wisdom, patience, and in a way that guarantees that sin and suffering will never again raise its ugly head.
I know it is a lot to comprehend and wrap your head around, but if you truly search the Bible for the truth about God you will find it. So many people who blast the Bible and God, because there is suffering, never seem to read the end of the book. It says that love triumphs in the end and all those who choose to, receive eternal life in a world free of all sin and suffering. If the Bible is nothing but fiction, then what is the point of having discussions on human suffering for it will go on and on until the next mass extinction event or the sun burns out in a billion years. Hey, the choice is yours, follow the theory of a sun that will burn out and extinguish all life, or follow the story of the Son who will shine forever and offers eternal life to all who accept it.
Half Nelson, how is it choice to be born into a world full of suffering and pain and unfairness because (according to you) our oldest ancestors made a mistake? Adam's choice was not mine nor any others' but his.
Half Nelson, how is it choice to be born into a world full of suffering and pain and unfairness because (according to you) our oldest ancestors made a mistake? Adam's choice was not mine nor any others' but his.
I never said that it was YOUR choice, to be born, only that your birth was the result of a choice, namely your parents choice to have intercourse. Adam's choice shows us that the choices we make have consequences for others. If you choose to drink and drive, your choice can have negative consequences that affect others. The consequence of Adam's sin was that he could not pass onto his offspring a sinless world. Adam took away our ability to choose any other life, but Christ gave us back that choice. Because of what Christ did at Calvary, you and I can choose to have the life that Adam's choice took from us. You have a choice, the world Adam chose for us or the world Christ wants us to have. Pick up a Bible and read the end of the book. The life Christ wants for us is beyond that which we can fully comprehend, and it is a life free of all sin and suffering.
The moment that Adam sinned God set into motion a plan to save him and Eve, however His plan wasn't focused solely on Adam/Eve, it was also focused on you and I. God's plan wasn't to simply save Adam/Eve from suffering the murder of one of their sons at the hands of his own brother, God's plan was such that once sin was dealt with it would be dealt with for eternity. It had to be dealt with in a way that would guarantee it would never rise up again. God's plan was to save all of Adam/Eve's sons/daughters from the ultimate consequence of sin. The ultimate consequence of sin is eternal death. It is not an eternal burning in some physical hell, it is eternal non-existence.
This world full of suffering and sin, is getting closer and closer to coming to an end. Everday people are making choices that are leading them towards or away from God. I firmly believe that we are so close to Christ's return that there are many alive today that will never experience death. Christ is coming to claim those who want to live a life free of sin and suffering. Closer we get to His coming the greater effort we will see on the part of Satan to further his agenda of seeing everyone lost. Sin and suffering will increase as a result, but have hope in the end of the story. Victory is already certain. Even if I were to suffer death today; so long as I die with the choice to follow God in my heart, then on that great gettin up morning when Christ returns, to claim those who want the life He comes to give, the Bible tells me that "the dead in Christ shall rise first", and then with those who never died, will be caught up to meet Him in the air. Without Christ, I would have no hope in a resurrection. I would be subject to the finality of death, which is the ultimate consequence of sin. But praise God for Christ, for He gave me a way to conquer that which I was doomed from birth to endure.
Logic, I don't know you at all beyond the words on my computer screen, but as God is my witness, I have prayed that you and I can meet one day in that new world spoken of in the last chapters of Revelation, that world that, it seems to me, you would love to be a part of. God bless you my friend.
That book has suffered through roughly 2000 years of all kinds of scrutiny, and of all the people on earth, those that feel about it as you do are in the stark minority.
I don't think so my friend. Considering that two-thirds of the world have no belief in your god, your Jesus or your Bible, it makes YOU and those that feel about it as you do the minority. I'd also remind you that there are religions around today that have been practised much longer than Christianity and their holy books have survived longer than your Bible. Does that make them true?
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Study the book of Daniel along with a history book and tell me if it is full of fables.
Daniel is history posing as prophecy.
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You say that the book has been shown to be nothing more than fable, fiction, and fraud, and I agree that to those looking for fable, fiction, and fraud; that is all the bible will show them. However, for those who are in search of truth, the Bible will show them more truth than they could absorb in 10 lifetimes.
"Truth"?? You mean like global floods, all the life forms on the planet fitting into a small boat, towers that reach the sky, times when all the peoples of the world spoke the same language, millions of people wandering around the dessert for 40 years, people walking on water and living inside a fish etc...THAT kind of "Truth"??
....and that's without even touching on the failed prophecies.
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