San Francisco, Oakland Among America's Most Unequal Big Cities (Los Angeles: apartment, loft)

[04kL4nD]

You seem really invested in this issue, yet you don't seem to want to read what's right in front of you. Perhaps instead, you can collect some raw data from the people who are leaving SF and see where they're moving. I've got better things to do with my time, so I'll leave you to it.

[ExeterMedia]

Here I'll post some statistics.

According to data crunched from BLS statistics, the entire metro area SF/Oakland/Fremont has lost nearly 22,000 middle class jobs since 2007. That's nearly a 4% drop.

The Cities Creating The Most Middle-Class Jobs | Newgeography.com

The places where middle class growth is rising are where most people who keep up with the economy would expect, places like Texas where many Forbes 500 companies are relocating jobs to (from California) to avoid high taxes, and high COL.

So the only way middle class employment could grow in Oakland is if the SF and Fremont areas disproportionately shed those jobs over the years, and Oakland actually gained a significant amount of middle class jobs. But you would have to show data to back that up because it's highly unlikely that the metro stats are distributed in that way.

[04kL4nD]

Red herrings aren't going to get you out of this one. I'm afraid the only way to be sure is to get out there and hit the pavement. Where there's a will, there's a way!

[ExeterMedia]

Originally Posted by 04kL4nD

You seem really invested in this issue, yet you don't seem to want to read what's right in front of you. Perhaps instead, you can collect some raw data from the people who are leaving SF and see where they're moving. I've got better things to do with my time, so I'll leave you to it.

Well if you don't feel you can cite a source or study that backs up your claim, I won't fault you for it, it just means that the claim is not verifiable unfortunately.

[04kL4nD]

You're the one making the claim that the middle class in Oakland has 'virtually disappeared'- whatever that's supposed to mean. That leaves YOU with the burden of proof, not me

[jade408]

Originally Posted by ExeterMedia

How do you know what is "hard" for me to believe? Is that how you talk to people in real life, you assume what they are thinking and then judge them based on that? This is the second time you have done this. Are you this rude in real life?

If you're not going to engage in a polite discussion, why do so at all?

Next time I'll add a sarcasm tag.

My sister works at a company of middle class workers, most everyone has middle class wages, and many people have kids. 50% of those middle class families have kids. Many of them with older kids (ages 12+), they stayed in Oakland and make the private school costs work. Because they value living in Oakland and didn't want to move because they like their community.

A couple of months ago I went to an OUSD fundraiser. As you can imagine, the issue of schools came up. Obviously I didn't do a scientific poll, but many of the parents there with older kids sent their children to private schools (they come in all price points), but their kids did stay in the Oakland schools at the younger ages. They just budgeted for private school.

What's happening now, more (middle class) families are moving in, and they want to send their kids to public for K-12, so they are putting in effort to improve their neighborhood schools. Oakland Tech has improved a ton over the past 7-10 years, and parents are choosing to send their kids there. This trajectory is continuing all over neighborhoods in "The Town," and I'd imagine in about 5-10 more years there will be a lot more middle class, and increasing numbers of upper middle class kids in the upper grades for the Oakland School district, and schools will better reflect their surrounding neighborhoods.

As a separate trend, more people, particularly those under 40, want to live in denser and more walkable places. Oakland happens to have a lot of those places. These people also tend to have less kids, so it would be easier for them to live in a smaller place and budget for private schools in the later grades. We do have a huge demographic and preference shift happening these days in terms of living arrangements, and Oakland is well-poised to take advantage of a lot of it. Oakland has seen a ton of growth in the denser more walkable areas, even with the nonstop PR around the "issues" in Oakland. Oakland has also been making strides on these issues over the past 5-10 years, chipping away at them bit by bit. Even long neglect East Oakland is seeing new development.

[04kL4nD]

You're going to need to back up your experiences with statistics, Jade. Otherwise, we can only go on data from the BLS stats which obviously means you're just imagining things

[ExeterMedia]

Originally Posted by jade408

Next time I'll add a sarcasm tag.

My sister works at a company of middle class workers, most everyone has middle class wages, and many people have kids. 50% of those middle class families have kids. Many of them with older kids (ages 12+), they stayed in Oakland and make the private school costs work. Because they value living in Oakland and didn't want to move because they like their community.

A couple of months ago I went to an OUSD fundraiser. As you can imagine, the issue of schools came up. Obviously I didn't do a scientific poll, but many of the parents there with older kids sent their children to private schools (they come in all price points), but their kids did stay in the Oakland schools at the younger ages. They just budgeted for private school.

What's happening now, more (middle class) families are moving in, and they want to send their kids to public for K-12, so they are putting in effort to improve their neighborhood schools. Oakland Tech has improved a ton over the past 7-10 years, and parents are choosing to send their kids there. This trajectory is continuing all over neighborhoods in "The Town," and I'd imagine in about 5-10 more years there will be a lot more middle class, and increasing numbers of upper middle class kids in the upper grades for the Oakland School district, and schools will better reflect their surrounding neighborhoods.

As a separate trend, more people, particularly those under 40, want to live in denser and more walkable places. Oakland happens to have a lot of those places. These people also tend to have less kids, so it would be easier for them to live in a smaller place and budget for private schools in the later grades. We do have a huge demographic and preference shift happening these days in terms of living arrangements, and Oakland is well-poised to take advantage of a lot of it. Oakland has seen a ton of growth in the denser more walkable areas, even with the nonstop PR around the "issues" in Oakland. Oakland has also been making strides on these issues over the past 5-10 years, chipping away at them bit by bit. Even long neglect East Oakland is seeing new development.

That sounds great, it really does. Would you happen to have any statistics showing that middle class families, and the "under 40" demographic are moving into the city in significant numbers? (not just the people you observe here or there)

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by ExeterMedia

Okay, but what does someone who has been living in the hills since 19-diggity-do have to do with the middle class? Today a middle class family is not going to go and buy a home in the Oakland with good schools, good location, and low crime without taking on tough financial hardship.

Sure, someone who bought their home 50 years ago is going to be fine anywhere, even Beverly Hills. But as our awesome friend 18Montclair loves to point out, the median income and prices for homes in the Hills is high, certainly not within reach of middle class families. The only homes a middle class family can buy, after a quick check on Zillow, seems to be in the hoody areas.

Do you think the article is not accurate in its rankings?

There is middle class income and middle class lifestyle...

The family that built the home I bought paid $1200 a year property tax and I pay $9000.

They would not have been ablt to maintain their middle class lifestyle in the home they built had the taxes they had to pay increased 7 fold.

The last several homes that sold in the area... 2011-2013 were in the 350 to 550k... about the same as Middle Class areas like Castro Valley or San Ramon for the same time period.

I bought before the crash and paid 598k

Only time will tell who my new neighbors will be as the older ones move away or die...

The only younger family on the street with a very nice home moved to Orinda citing avoiding tuition for two up and coming grade school children in Oakland or not in Orinda... now... BOTH their kids go to Head/Royce in Oakland and they tried to buy their old home back and were outbid by a couple in their 80's as unbelievable as that may seem.

School were the ONLY reason for their move and now a moot point.

[Ultrarunner]

With 180 posts I'm not sure how this thread defines middle class Oakland residents.

Is it what part of the city they live, their lifestyle, dollars in the bank, monthly income or assets?