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I never thought I would see the day when teachers were fired because they SUX!
It is about time! I think this evaluation process should be modified and many government employees should be put to the test as well. Tax payers should expect good performance from all government and quasi government employees, just like employees in the private sector.
I have to say, I have interacted with many government employees and agencies in Florida, and the helpfulness has been a very pleasant surprise. I have many friends that are teachers and work for the government up here, and have only praise for thier work and the helpfulness they offer the public. That said, I have met and interfaced with sooo many people that are just useless, and try to suffle off any thing they can. When they should help cut the time and cost of the businesses they purposely do as little as they can. The same thing can be said with some teachers - they are more passing the time until they get thier tenure and retirement, and no longer have the motivation and desire to help the students that they may have when they first started thier careers. Having a serious evaluation program where action, both positively reinforcing and supporting teachers and govt. employees is needed, and removing those that are no longer effective or performing at a highly efficient level. Private businesses can't remain in business for long if they operate this way.
Teachers are fired all the time. Where have you been? In fact, in the first couple of years of teaching, a teacher can be fired for no reason. No due process. No nothing.
And another common misconception is that all teachers get "tenure", actually called a continuing contract. Depending on the state, there are many hurdles to get to this point (including a master degree) and a lot teachers never get a continuing contract. The article does not state whether teachers with continuing contracts were fired. My guess is no. I do agree that sometimes a continuing contract does give a teacher a chance to "coast". But this is not unique to public education.
I generally do not have an issue with a fair evaluation system. I do not think teachers should be evaluated on student performance. How do you evaluate a special needs teacher? Art or P.E. teacher? And with even a regular classroom teacher it would be easy for an administrator to game the system. If an administrator wanted to get rid of a teacher just put all the difficult behavior students in that classroom. Classroom management would take priority over learning. Test scores go down and the teacher gets fired.
In most successful districts the union is involved in setting up the evaluation system. No one wants bad teachers, and that includes the unions. The best situation, whether in the private or public sector, is when both management and workers can agree on an evaluation system.
BH - I agree. My husband is a government worker, he works for Hillsborough County. He just had his evaluation - he has a tough boss, but he received an "exceptional." He deserves it, he works his butt off and his job is stressful. Unfortunately, there are no raises anymore due to the economy, but on the other hand he gets to keep his job. There have been many, many cuts the past two years, and it gave the county a reason to get rid of a LOT of the "dead wood" there, under normal circumstances it is hard to fire a civil service employee.
Good lord, it's hard to be glad that anyone is getting fired or laid off in this economy, but the truth of the matter is that it is an open secret that many teachers in this country are absolutely unqualified to babysit much less teach anyone anything, and that a large part of the reason is the teachers unions.
I have seen student evaluations with grammar so poor it was laughable.
The unions will never sit still for this, but I think it will be better for everyone--the unions and teachers as a whole, included--if this is permitted to stand.
Accountability is the only way to get quality work out of people, no matter what they're doing.
I never thought I would see the day when teachers were fired because they SUX!
It is about time! I think this evaluation process should be modified and many government employees should be put to the test as well. Tax payers should expect good performance from all government and quasi government employees, just like employees in the private sector.
I have to say, I have interacted with many government employees and agencies in Florida, and the helpfulness has been a very pleasant surprise. I have many friends that are teachers and work for the government up here, and have only praise for thier work and the helpfulness they offer the public. That said, I have met and interfaced with sooo many people that are just useless, and try to suffle off any thing they can. When they should help cut the time and cost of the businesses they purposely do as little as they can. The same thing can be said with some teachers - they are more passing the time until they get thier tenure and retirement, and no longer have the motivation and desire to help the students that they may have when they first started thier careers. Having a serious evaluation program where action, both positively reinforcing and supporting teachers and govt. employees is needed, and removing those that are no longer effective or performing at a highly efficient level. Private businesses can't remain in business for long if they operate this way.
And, your thoughts are . . .
Yet, another dumb idea that will once again prove the shortsightedness of those in charge.
Only in this country can you:
Get paid menial salaries
Have authoritative power taken away
Work longer than a standard 40-hour week
Have substandard, outdated equipment (if you have equipment)
...and still be expected to yield stellar results. Sounds like a minimum wage job at a burger joint. That's not even the issue at hand.
The problem I have with this and ideas before this is the mere absurdity of deciding the fate of an adult based on the performance of a child which has been proven to be good or bad depending on the individual at question. There are children (you probably grew up with some in your life) that had great teachers but did not take advantage of the opportunity and performed poorly. One or two per class and the teacher will be okay. If you're the unfortunate soul that ends up at a bad school and upwards of 25% or higher of your students have this same attitude towards school, the teacher is in serious trouble.
If a child doesn't do their homework, is that the teacher's fault?
If a child never takes their books home, is that the teacher's fault?
If a child doesn't study, is that the teacher's fault?
If a child can't attain a certain score on a standardized test, is that the teacher's fault?
Now, I'm not saying teachers should go without a more effective evaluation system but this is not the way and it will solve nothing.
Good lord, it's hard to be glad that anyone is getting fired or laid off in this economy, but the truth of the matter is that it is an open secret that many teachers in this country are absolutely unqualified to babysit much less teach anyone anything, and that a large part of the reason is the teachers unions.
I was wondering how long it would take to make this a teacher union bashing thread. No union is bad. Do you unions make bad decisions? Of course, just the same as management. The big issue I see with any union, is the inability to change with the times. Take a look at the auto unions. A wise union would have recognized the issues facing the American auto industry thirty years ago. Greater collaboration would have went along way in saving more of this industry. The same with the teachers union today. A wise union would recognize that standardized testing and charter schools are not going away. The union needs to get in front of these issues and propose a realistic solution.
By the way, where do you get your fact that "many teachers in this country are unqualified to babysit much less teach anyone anything"? I would be interested in seeing the data.
Good lord, it's hard to be glad that anyone is getting fired or laid off in this economy, but the truth of the matter is that it is an open secret that many teachers in this country are absolutely unqualified to babysit much less teach anyone anything, and that a large part of the reason is the teachers unions.
I have seen student evaluations with grammar so poor it was laughable.
The unions will never sit still for this, but I think it will be better for everyone--the unions and teachers as a whole, included--if this is permitted to stand.
Accountability is the only way to get quality work out of people, no matter what they're doing.
There aren't doctors, lawyers, accountants, chefs, clerks, chemists, engineers, salespeople, judges, etc. that are doing a lousy job? Why focus on teachers? People love bashing teachers for some reason!
Of course there are those that are unqualified - but a large # of them never make it past the first year or two of teaching.
WHat irks me about all of this is that the people who call for evaluating teachers have not yet come up with a valid basis for evaluating them! As has been said by others, a teacher cannot control what goes on at home; a teacher cannot control what goes on after school. An Administrator who has it "in" for a teacher can easily stack the deck against that teacher.
Show me a FAIR & VALID system for teacher evaluation, and I will support that 100%. Until that happens, it would simply be unfair to base a teacher's compensation & job tenure on how well the students assigned to that teacher perform.
I was wondering how long it would take to make this a teacher union bashing thread.
Rational criticism is "bashing?" Sounds like an argumentative device.
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A wise union would recognize that standardized testing and charter schools are not going away. The union needs to get in front of these issues and propose a realistic solution
Totally agreed, but not so they won't be troubled with the current situation. They should do so because the profession requires more accountability and the best way to stop all this horrific "bashing" would be for the unions to be openly seeking guidelines and self-monitoring.
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By the way, where do you get your fact that "many teachers in this country are unqualified to babysit much less teach anyone anything"? I would be interested in seeing the data.
Your request for data seems disingenuous, given the fact that my comment was clearly observational. I will temper it for the sake of debate:
"All indications, based upon a fair amount of personal observation and anectodal evidence, is that there are some, and possibly many, primary and secondary school teachers who are surprisingly lacking at even the most rudimentary grammatical skills, and should not, to my way of thinking, be considered qualified to be in the classroom."
Better?
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There aren't doctors, lawyers, accountants, chefs, clerks, chemists, engineers, salespeople, judges, etc. that are doing a lousy job?
Who said there weren't?
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Why focus on teachers?
Because that's who we're talking about. If we were talking about baseball players or the automotive industry or presidents or policemen or the Wall Street or artists, there would be a fair amount of criticism to go around as well.
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People love bashing teachers for some reason!
Creating a perception of persecution seems to be a valuable tool in a well-rounded campaign to get what one wants.
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An Administrator who has it "in" for a teacher can easily stack the deck against that teacher.
Oh no! Teachers have bosses too?! Are they supposed to operate in a vacuum, without any oversight at all? Every single person with a JOB has this potential issue. Why is it so special as applied to teachers?
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Show me a FAIR & VALID system for teacher evaluation, and I will support that 100%. Until that happens, it would simply be unfair to base a teacher's compensation & job tenure on how well the students assigned to that teacher perform.
100% agreed. But in the absence of any alternative (or, really, even any ostensible move to devise one), people will prefer this plan to none at all.
I am not trying to be contentious. I have an opinion, and, when it comes to teachers, if it doesn't involve a fluffy bunny and a happy flower, everyone gets all up in arms. I believe they should be better paid and held to higher standards. Should I bite my tongue and defer to the vocal people who will defend everything that teachers and the teachers unions do?
Rational criticism is "bashing?" Sounds like an argumentative device.
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Originally Posted by Rushmore
.....but the truth of the matter is that it is an open secret that many teachers in this country are absolutely unqualified to babysit much less teach anyone anything, and that a large part of the reason is the teachers unions.
Your comment was a generalization that based upon no known facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but most back it up in facts. If you wish to make your point, support it with facts. And by the way, if you feel that some teachers are not qualified to teach, who is to blame? The universities who train them or the administrators who hire them?
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Originally Posted by Rushmore
They should do so because the profession requires more accountability and the best way to stop all this horrific "bashing" would be for the unions to be openly seeking guidelines and self-monitoring.
Most local unions are. My concern is with the national unions. If the national organization would encourage both the managers and workers approach this as a partnership, the students would better off.
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Originally Posted by Rushmore
Creating a perception of persecution seems to be a valuable tool in a well-rounded campaign to get what one wants.
So calling someone out for an undocumented accusation against an entire group of people is now considered persecution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushmore
Oh no! Teachers have bosses too?! Are they supposed to operate in a vacuum, without any oversight at all? Every single person with a JOB has this potential issue. Why is it so special as applied to teachers?
No one in this thread has proposed that an administrator has no right to evaluate a teacher. The above statement is another snarky slam upon teachers and people that defend them. The concern is about including student performance in teacher evaluations. If I am an engineer, my evaluation is based upon my performance. If I am a construction worker, my evaluation is based upon my performance. If I am a nurse, my evaluation is based upon my performance. In what other profession is your evaluation based upon someone else's performance?
I started the thread, and I wanted to see where it went - still do.
The article I posted focused on Teachers. I introduced that other government employees should be evaluated as well. Tax payer dollars that fund thier employment, benefits, pensions, and I believe that there are good performing teachers and teachers that are not. A good evaluation system is needed, and teachers (or any other government employee) that does not perform well should be thinned from the budget. Just the same as they would be if they were not performing well in the private work sector.
If "other" factors make thier job tough, because of things they don't control, then sure it needs to be considered in the evaluation. But, to be blindly supportive of teachers that perform poorly, who are trusted with the next generation is not a wise decision.
I stated in the OP "Having a serious evaluation program where action, both positively reinforcing and supporting teachers and govt. employees is needed, and removing those that are no longer effective or performing at a highly efficient level."
Other factors - include many things - poor parenting, lack of materials and equipment, troubled children, kids with disabilities, and other things. These can be accounted for in the evaluation system, and it can be done effectively and efficiently, and not by biased parties that have a vice for anyone. Evaluations are done all the time in private business, and done fairly for the most part (with the interest of the business at heart.) The business is to educate our children is to include but not be limited to: preparing them to be productive, intelligent, self sufficient, contributing members of society.
Providing teaching and government jobs, and security, for those that do not perform well is not a right.
Bashing teachers is not the point of this thread. I don't think anyone is "bashing" teachers either. Fairly evaluating teachers, and providing the best available is the point. IF, for each bad teacher that is removed, another good teacher is provided and the system of educating as a whole is improved then I think it has been too long in coming. Everyone, including Unions can do a much better job now to help put the education system on its best footing. Now, may be the best time to do it as well. There are many highly educated people available that would love to have a teaching job. The private sector take times like these to get the best employees available, and up-grade their staff wisely as things turn around.
Good teachers and good government workers should be supported, well compensated, encouraged, and put in an environment where they can do well. The best education system we can provide should be provided. We owe it to our kids - the next generation. After all, we are saddling them with our debt. We owe nothing to those that don't deliver. We can support them in other ways - that's what the useless congressmen we vote for are for. LOL ((And that was a totally bi-partisan comment)).
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