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So, while I guess I may be thinking about Atlanta (3.5 hrs.) or Appalachia (4.5 hrs. to Table Rock SC, at least), I'm more talking about the closest significant neighboring cities, Jacksonville and Charleston, which are each 2 hrs. away, roughly.
First question: Is there any specific type of rivalry or animosity between people from these cities? I guess, I'm reminded of a quote back from when I read "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" almost 4 years ago exactly:
"Savannahians often talked about other places, as if they traveled a lot, but usually it was just talk. Savannahians liked to talk about Charleston most of all, especially in the presence of a newcomer. They would compare the two cities endlessly....Savannah preferred hunting, fishing, and going to parties over intellectual pursuits; in Charleston it was the other way around.....Savannahians rarely went anywhere at all. They could not be bothered. They were content to remain in their isolated city under self-imposed house arrest."
So, I guess my question is, how true is this, still, if at all, in 2021?
I certainly think any notion of them as being one metropolitan region (CSA even), ever, would be an absurd one given the two-hour distance between each. But maybe in a way, a megalopolis (minorlopolis?) of sorts, where each of the three kinda adds value to the other. In Charleston, in the form of an aforementioned historic, coastal charm like Savannah, that also maybe manifests itself in appearance and culture in some different ways. In Jacksonville, what is a smaller, but still more modern in appearance and major feeling, city. With an NFL team and the HQ of the PGA/TPC, maybe an airport with slightly more options, slightly warmer weather, if needed (? Not sure on this one), and certain business connections and fine arts/traveling concert presence.
There is some possibility, in fact, that I may be moving to the Savannah area, and I guess I was curious about how frequently, if at all, locals traveled to or from, or utilized things from these areas (or had some type of kinship or rivalry).
I guess it wasn't the original topic of the post, but what would be some of the things to be aware of if making a move to Greater Savannah, having come from the I-4 corridor, that would be a potential culture shock or just things that are good to know?
I live outside of Savannah, and I have gone to Jacksonville and Charleston for occasional events, but it is very infrequent. The only thing that Charleston does better than Savannah is the gorgeous big harbor. Both Charleston and Savannah have a wealth of history, and vibrant bars and restaurants.
I find that there is plenty to see and do in Savannah, and I have no need to go elsewhere. We do go across the river to Bluffton and Hilton Head, every so often.
We moved from podunk, so we were, and are still, awestruck by the goings on every weekend in Savannah. I guess it depends on what you are used to.
The only shock we struggled with is the oppressive heat and humidity in the summer. It was too hot to enjoy anything outside. This will be the same in any of the 3 cities.
"Savannahians often talked about other places, as if they traveled a lot, but usually it was just talk. Savannahians liked to talk about Charleston most of all, especially in the presence of a newcomer. They would compare the two cities endlessly....Savannah preferred hunting, fishing, and going to parties over intellectual pursuits; in Charleston it was the other way around.....Savannahians rarely went anywhere at all. They could not be bothered. They were content to remain in their isolated city under self-imposed house arrest."
So, I guess my question is, how true is this, still, if at all, in 2021?
Well, John Berendt spent pretty much his entire effort in that book on folks living "North of Gaston," - the "NOGs," which, if you've spent any time here, rules out people south of Forsyth Park - a park nearly all Savannahians would consider as being in the HEART of the city, despite the disparaging term he adopted for such southerly areas basically being "North Jacksonville."
Midnight (1994) was a great read, but it was told through the lens of an outsider who fancied a specific type of Savannahian - a kind of snob who dictated and shaped his gleeful, but limited understanding and confined it to the Landmark Urban Historic District, which has pretty much never been diverse or representative of the city as a whole since the 19th century, when it was all that Savannah consisted of.
If you'd like a real Savannah author's take on the question of our fair city's provinciality, I would recommend that you check out the late great Savannah Morning News Editor Tom Coffey's book entitled Only in Savannah: Stories and Insights on Georgia's Mother City. I particularly appreciated the term "The State of Chatham," for its double entendre and a certain lived-in accuracy.
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I certainly think any notion of them [Savannah/Jacksonville/Charleston] as being one metropolitan region (CSA even), ever, would be an absurd one given the two-hour distance between each. But maybe in a way, a megalopolis (minorlopolis?) of sorts...
Yeah, never going to happen. There's too much empty territory between, and each is in a different state. Culturally, Jacksonville is way younger than both Savannah and Charleston, which are products of English settlements. Jacksonville is just up the road from St. Augustine, and was clearly always Spanish territory, even though few White settlers would have dared venture to what would have simply been wilderness back in the day. Some history and time spent in the three cities will help to flesh that out for you. Just consider that Florida was not a colony of the British empire, and both Carolina and Georgia were.
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...where each of the three kinda adds value to the other. In Charleston, in the form of an aforementioned historic, coastal charm like Savannah, that also maybe manifests itself in appearance and culture in some different ways. In Jacksonville, what is a smaller, but still more modern in appearance and major feeling, city. With an NFL team and the HQ of the PGA/TPC, maybe an airport with slightly more options, slightly warmer weather, if needed (? Not sure on this one), and certain business connections and fine arts/traveling concert presence.
You may be the first person I've ever heard opine that Jacksonville wields much in the way of the arts over Savannah or Charleston. After all, Savannah is home to the largest arts college in the world, whose campus essentially IS the city itself. Just a fact to ponder... Aside from students of art, you've got much denser examples of architectural importance in both Savannah and Charleston as well. Of course, Charleston is home to Spoleto, which is a world-renowned annual opera, theater, dance and music powerhouse.
I guess my argument is that taken together, Charleston and Savannah are related in ways that Jacksonville is not. Geographic proximity and a professional sports team has garnered almost zero fans around these parts. You'll find more fans of the twice-as-far Falcons, although admittedly, the hearts of most Georgians outside of Atlanta-proper really swing with the fortunes of the University of Georgia's football program instead.
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There is some possibility, in fact, that I may be moving to the Savannah area, and I guess I was curious about how frequently, if at all, locals traveled to or from, or utilized things from these areas (or had some type of kinship or rivalry).
Charleston and Jacksonville both offer some delights to Savannah residents looking for nearby getaways. Savannahians have used Jax's airport a lot more in the past, as our own airport's destinations and carriers have continued to grow. But, if you're looking to get to the Caribbean (or other points south), Jacksonville can be quite handy.
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I guess it wasn't the original topic of the post, but what would be some of the things to be aware of if making a move to Greater Savannah, having come from the I-4 corridor, that would be a potential culture shock or just things that are good to know?
Savannah's downtown is overrun with tourists most of the year, and that has honestly detracted from some of its character and charm that I remember, and John Berendt wrote about. Still, it has more than its fair share of idiosyncrasies and oddball characters. But the noise of the tour buses and all the trendy restaurants and myriad big-chain hotels together drowns most of that out in the NOGs backyard.
Spend some time here. Don't stay downtown if you're not planning on living downtown. Explore "North Jacksonville" a bit - the different islands are interesting, and the places most locals frequent and work are in areas Berendt never bothered with.
I live outside of Savannah, and I have gone to Jacksonville and Charleston for occasional events, but it is very infrequent. The only thing that Charleston does better than Savannah is the gorgeous big harbor. Both Charleston and Savannah have a wealth of history, and vibrant bars and restaurants.
I find that there is plenty to see and do in Savannah, and I have no need to go elsewhere. We do go across the river to Bluffton and Hilton Head, every so often.
We moved from podunk, so we were, and are still, awestruck by the goings on every weekend in Savannah. I guess it depends on what you are used to.
The only shock we struggled with is the oppressive heat and humidity in the summer. It was too hot to enjoy anything outside. This will be the same in any of the 3 cities.
Makes sense. Honestly, having seen both downtowns as a tourist, I liked both equally well, though they are different-Charleston's is perhaps larger overall whereas Savannah's is more compact, but I liked both quite a bit. It makes sense that you wouldn't go to both that often, I think in part, given that even the other two (even Jacksonville, in a way) offer somewhat similar charms, that you wouldn't have a reason to go that often. To be quite honest with you, when leaving town, most often, I think I'd be going to Statesboro (Georgia Southern) or Columbia (University of South Carolina), more than I would those two, because what they uniquely offer that Jax doesn't would be FBS Football/Power 5 College Sports, both of which I enjoy more than the NFL (if moving, I would imagine that I might make it to 2-3 Georgia Southern football games per year, and maybe 1 South Carolina football and basketball game per season (though baseball is quite good there also, from what I hear).
I've lived mainly in relatively major metropolitan regions (Greater Cleveland, Orlando, and Tampa Bay), but that said, I'd agree, Savannah has enough going on especially given the surrounding area, but even considering the city itself, that I wouldn't get bored there at all, and frankly, I think there are even smaller population regions that I would be satisfied by, overall.
The heat I'd agree is probably quite warm, but looking at it compared to what we have now, I think it may still be an improvement-it looks like only 3 months of peak summer heat compared to 5 down here... and earlier shoulder seasons with cooler temps and cooler winters overall (which I, personally, would look forward to).
Well, John Berendt spent pretty much his entire effort in that book on folks living "North of Gaston," - the "NOGs," which, if you've spent any time here, rules out people south of Forsyth Park - a park nearly all Savannahians would consider as being in the HEART of the city, despite the disparaging term he adopted for such southerly areas basically being "North Jacksonville."
Midnight (1994) was a great read, but it was told through the lens of an outsider who fancied a specific type of Savannahian - a kind of snob who dictated and shaped his gleeful, but limited understanding and confined it to the Landmark Urban Historic District, which has pretty much never been diverse or representative of the city as a whole since the 19th century, when it was all that Savannah consisted of.
If you'd like a real Savannah author's take on the question of our fair city's provinciality, I would recommend that you check out the late great Savannah Morning News Editor Tom Coffey's book entitled Only in Savannah: Stories and Insights on Georgia's Mother City. I particularly appreciated the term "The State of Chatham," for its double entendre and a certain lived-in accuracy.
First off, I appreciate both of your responses, and I appreciate you providing insight into how Berendt really was just focusing on the historic district, and so it wouldn't be entirely representative at all. I also appreciate the other book that you provided to me as a recommendation. Given that I may be headed that way in particular and I enjoy reading, I will have to check it out. I do get a slight chuckle out of the "North Jacksonville" thing, snobbish though it may be. It kinda reminds me of Jim Valvano's quote about his father that had never left NYC, that "he thought everything north of the George Washington Bridge was Canada."
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Originally Posted by CoastalGAGuy
Yeah, never going to happen. There's too much empty territory between, and each is in a different state. Culturally, Jacksonville is way younger than both Savannah and Charleston, which are products of English settlements. Jacksonville is just up the road from St. Augustine, and was clearly always Spanish territory, even though few White settlers would have dared venture to what would have simply been wilderness back in the day. Some history and time spent in the three cities will help to flesh that out for you. Just consider that Florida was not a colony of the British empire, and both Carolina and Georgia were.
I agree with you here, also, but I guess my thoughts are 1) That's kinda cool. As a prospective resident and person within the area then, it would kinda give 3, vastly different experiences, the one I am in, and the two states on either side (for almost all the years I've been driving, day-tripping to a different state would be an impracticality as it would be a 3 hr. plus drive to... Valdosta as the reward at the end of that (no offense meant to Valdosta... but...) 2) Obviously metro would never ever be a thing, but I guess I'm thinking in terms of like regional economic cooperation (e.g. the Bos-Wash corridor or Texas Triangle and how they are talked about in that sense, though as an everyday resident that may not effect me that much just as it wouldn't necessarily affect residents of those places, either.
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Originally Posted by CoastalGAGuy
You may be the first person I've ever heard opine that Jacksonville wields much in the way of the arts over Savannah or Charleston. After all, Savannah is home to the largest arts college in the world, whose campus essentially IS the city itself. Just a fact to ponder... Aside from students of art, you've got much denser examples of architectural importance in both Savannah and Charleston as well. Of course, Charleston is home to Spoleto, which is a world-renowned annual opera, theater, dance and music powerhouse.
Haha, no qualms here, either, particularly on the architecture point which is absolutely true. I guess as far as arts, perhaps I'm speaking more to macro arts vs. micro? On the micro/local arts scene and culture, I would agree that Savannah and Charleston are nearly unsurpassed in the US. However, I think even came on this forum a few years back and asked about museums and the point I was given was that while Savannah does have it's share (Georgia Historical Society, Telfair, SCAD Museums), its peak charms as a city, and even in the arts were found in terms of local art, shops, architecture, and the types of festivals you mention. Where to me, when speaking to the macro art one might enjoy in Jax, I guess I'm speaking to like traveling concerts and such, perhaps traveling broadway? The Times-Union Center for the Performing Arts (I have a personal friend and one of the better posters on here IMO, projectmaximus, who has spoken to have impressive the orchestra there is compared to even some larger southeastern cities, and I figured that may carry over to some other stuff (though perhaps that is implicit larger city bias, and being artsier in general, Savannah may have a better capacity and facilities for things like that, also. Not to take it the wrong way at all, as I think I'll be happy even just in and around Savannah too, but as mentioned, I'm trying to understand and appreciate the various charms and relative strengths each of the three has so I can seek them out and enjoy them.
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Originally Posted by CoastalGAGuy
I guess my argument is that taken together, Charleston and Savannah are related in ways that Jacksonville is not. Geographic proximity and a professional sports team has garnered almost zero fans around these parts. You'll find more fans of the twice-as-far Falcons, although admittedly, the hearts of most Georgians outside of Atlanta-proper really swing with the fortunes of the University of Georgia's football program instead.
Charleston and Jacksonville both offer some delights to Savannah residents looking for nearby getaways. Savannahians have used Jax's airport a lot more in the past, as our own airport's destinations and carriers have continued to grow. But, if you're looking to get to the Caribbean (or other points south), Jacksonville can be quite handy.
Savannah's downtown is overrun with tourists most of the year, and that has honestly detracted from some of its character and charm that I remember, and John Berendt wrote about. Still, it has more than its fair share of idiosyncrasies and oddball characters. But the noise of the tour buses and all the trendy restaurants and myriad big-chain hotels together drowns most of that out in the NOGs backyard.
That's interesting you say that, but perhaps unsurprising altogether. I put a high premium on being live at games and close enough to be able to do so, so not being from Georgia, I think I would be unlikely to go to UGA or Falcons games given the 3.75 to 4 hr. each way trip to do so (if anything I definitely do plan to adopt Georgia Southern as one of my teams if making the move, small-time as they may be). But, I can get where being in state and those being the primary in state teams, that sort of loyalty would sorta swing more that way.
It would be nice to see Jacksonville's airport offerings grow more than they have. If anything, it seems like Savannah-Hilton Head is actually closer to catching up to or matching Jacksonville Airport's offerings now than it is to Jacksonville growing more in terms of what it provides. That said, the cruise terminal there would seem to be a nice perk, too.
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Originally Posted by CoastalGAGuy
Spend some time here. Don't stay downtown if you're not planning on living downtown. Explore "North Jacksonville" a bit - the different islands are interesting, and the places most locals frequent and work are in areas Berendt never bothered with.
I appreciate again your thoughts and insights. That's my plan, perhaps for some time even this coming week, if I receive a potential offer. I also agree that I wouldn't stay downtown, for that type of visit. I mean, if I lived in the area, I could see myself coming downtown quite a bit to hang out, etc., but the purpose of a prospective visit would be to get to know the area better overall as a region and see where and what living would be like (no offense to downtown, I just don't think I could come close to affording it).
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Couple more thoughts:
1) We are Christians and attend church, so even if it is more religiously affiliated than where I'm moving from, I wouldn't be at all bothered. Politically... I consider myself almost sort of apolitical. I mean, I stay informed, and have certain leanings, and don't necessarily agree with either side fully, but I think the big thing is that I would want to ideally, even if an area did have a heavy leaning, just to not have it be something that is omnipresent discussion in life (I don't define myself by politics). All of the areas I've lived in are honestly pretty purple, if I had to say, and so, people kinda (mostly) try to politely avoid discussing it, and vote in elections, but otherwise treat each other with kindness and respect regardless of the way they voted (or at least that's what I try to do in my circles at least... both Republicans and Democrats are among some of the best people I am friends with and know).
2) Specific question: Where are some of the best bike/cycling paths in the area, and running/hiking spots also? I'm not "anti-beach", but I enjoy running or bicycling probably just as much or more than that overall, so if I knew about some to check out (even out in suburbs like Pooler, etc) that would definitely be a plus
Last edited by theurbanfiles; 12-12-2021 at 10:19 AM..
Politically and spiritually, it sounds like you'll find Savannah to be a reasonably good fit. Chatham is a purple place - urban areas are blue, suburban are red, pretty much just like most of the country. Churches abound, too, but life here is not defined on where or whether your family attends. There is plenty of social crossover, and a healthy overriding respect that keeps politics mostly out of mixed company. Our city's progressive mayor has demonstrated a knack for keeping the lines of communication open through our tough pandemic that has affected so much.
Cycling is not something Savannah has fostered all that much, although lanes on north/sound routes have been recently added to a couple of streets (Lincoln and Price come to mind). In suburban neighborhoods, recreational biking is OK. Many communities are sort of cut off for travel between by bikes, forcing only the bravest (craziest?) to dare a bridge crossing or busy thoroughfare.
“If you go to Atlanta, the first question people ask you is, ‘What's your business?’ In Macon they ask, ‘Where do you go to church?’ In Augusta they ask your grandmother's maiden name. But in Savannah the first question people ask you is ‘What would you like to drink?’”
Cycling is slowly getting better in Savannah. There is a long term plan to create a loop around the city. See https://tidetotown.org. The Truman Linear Park trail is open and is a nice ride. There are bike lanes on Lincoln and Price Streets and Barnard is also bike friendly.
For running, Forsyth Park is a popular spot in town; almost a mile per lap. Daffin Park is larger and has a rubberized running trail around the perimeter. The riverfront is also a nice place to run.
I'm a cyclist and when I lived on Wilmington Island I would comfortably cycle around the island. It's about a 10 mile loop. I've attached a screen shot from Google Earth of the route. Look at the island on Google Earth and you'll see the route is fairly obvious. There were cars passing, but it's not as bad as some other areas of town. I didn't dare get onto Johnny Mercer, (the main road through the island), so I cut through the neighborhood behind Kroger.
At some point in the late 80s, they built multipurpose paths around some of the island. My dad used to cycle on them, but 30 years later, by the time I got on them, they were in rough shape. So, I stuck to the road.
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