Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,517,350 times
Reputation: 3107
Advertisements
How does everyone feel about this?
If a monkey was given a keyboard for an infinite amount of time, would it type every work of Shakespeare at some point? In the Universe, if it is truly infinite, does that mean that every single event in the history of this planet and everything that is happening now, as well as everything that will happen in the future is currently happening EXACTLY the same somewhere in infinite space? The concept of infinity is mind boggling. That even means that this text I am writing has happened an infinite amount of times by someone with my exact DNA that lives on a planet that happens to have the same exact conditions of life as Earth does and evolution happened the exact same way. This is very hard to describe via text, but does anyone know what I'm talking about? Have any input?
If a monkey was given a keyboard for an infinite amount of time, would it type every work of Shakespeare at some point? In the Universe, if it is truly infinite, does that mean that every single event in the history of this planet and everything that is happening now, as well as everything that will happen in the future is currently happening EXACTLY the same somewhere in infinite space? The concept of infinity is mind boggling. That even means that this text I am writing has happened an infinite amount of times by someone with my exact DNA that lives on a planet that happens to have the same exact conditions of life as Earth does and evolution happened the exact same way. This is very hard to describe via text, but does anyone know what I'm talking about? Have any input?
It's more of a philosophical "What if..." exercise. If the Universe is the product of the Big Bang, then there would have been a point when there was no Universe. If current views about the future of the Universe are correct, based on the accelerated expansion of space, then the Universe as we know it will eventually cease to exist. The Universe would come to an end. That would pretty much put a dent in the concept of an infinite universe.
That said, we have an idea about the Observable Universe, but we don't really know how large Actual Universe is. Maybe it's part of an infinite kind of higher dimensional space, sometimes referred to as Bulk Space, that exists beyond our own space-time Universe. And maybe there is an infinite number of other universe-sized structures (a multiverse). But even if there is no multiverse, and the Universe completely decays because of entropy into an infinite and absolute vacuum state, then it is possible for particles to pop in and out of existence and it is possible that with an infinite number of probabilities anything could happen. It could mean a green pyramid could suddenly come into existence for no apparent reason, then vanish. Or a universe filled with nothing but Mickey Mouse figurines could appear, or a world in which monkeys could write the entire works of Shakespeare.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,517,350 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar
It's more of a philosophical "What if..." exercise. If the Universe is the product of the Big Bang, then there would have been a point when there was no Universe. If current views about the future of the Universe are correct, based on the accelerated expansion of space, then the Universe as we know it will eventually cease to exist. The Universe would come to an end. That would pretty much put a dent in the concept of an infinite universe.
That said, we have an idea about the Observable Universe, but we don't really know how large Actual Universe is. Maybe it's part of an infinite kind of higher dimensional space, sometimes referred to as Bulk Space, that exists beyond our own space-time Universe. And maybe there is an infinite number of other universe-sized structures (a multiverse). But even if there is no multiverse, and the Universe completely decays because of entropy into an infinite and absolute vacuum state, then it is possible for particles to pop in and out of existence and it is possible that with an infinite number of probabilities anything could happen. It could mean a green pyramid could suddenly come into existence for no apparent reason, then vanish. Or a universe filled with nothing but Mickey Mouse figurines could appear, or a world in which monkeys could write the entire works of Shakespeare.
Interesting. It's bizarre to think about a finite Universe, or a Universe destined to cease in existence. For some odd reason that is even more mind blowing than a multiverse where this conversation is happening infinitum.
Even if every proton in the observable universe were a monkey with a typewriter, typing from the Big Bang until the end of the universe (when protons no longer exist), they would still need a ridiculously longer time - more than three hundred and sixty thousand orders of magnitude longer - to have even a 1 in 10500 chance of success. To put it another way, for a one in a trillion chance of success, there would need to be 10360,641 universes made of atomic monkeys
Not only did the monkeys produce nothing but five total pages[11] largely consisting of the letter S, the lead male began by bashing the keyboard with a stone, and the monkeys continued by urinating and defecating on it.
You are being tripped up by thinking of all infinities as infinite. There are large infinities and small infinities. Infinities don't have to "exist" to be infinities. There are an infinite number of ways to offend a person. There are an infinite number of ways to offend ALL people. Infinity A does not equal infinity B.
Another example of the foolishness possible with infinite thinking is the tortoise and hare conundrum. You can have a race between a tortoise and hare, and show that neither can win because there are an infinite number of fractions within the first step of either animal, and pointing out the exact point where one is ahead of the other is impossible, and would take all the time in the universe to calculate precisely.
A greater issue is that each of us live within a locus of probability. As we look further than our immediate locus, reality becomes more fuzzy. Some simple examples are that you can state what you ate for dinner tonight, but from your viewpoint, only guess with some probability what you ate the day after your second birthday. You can state how many marbles are in a cup beside you, but only guess at the number in a similar cup a hundred miles away. Since the time sense of an astronaut is different that yours by a few seconds, the EXPERIENCE of existence is different between you an an astronaut. Talk of infinite universe permutations and duplications are meaningless to humans because we figuratively can't see (perceive) beyond the ends of our noses and by definition each have different experiences of space/time.
So it's not possible that a bunch of monkeys with typewriters could someday write Macbeth?
I would suggest that given infinite time and an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of keyboards it would be quite possible. Just don't hold your breath waiting.
I would suggest that given infinite time and an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of keyboards it would be quite possible. Just don't hold your breath waiting.
That's what I thought. In my mind, anyway, infinite is infinite. A fairly long time.
Interesting. It's bizarre to think about a finite Universe, or a Universe destined to cease in existence. For some odd reason that is even more mind blowing than a multiverse where this conversation is happening infinitum.
The thing about infinity is that it's unmeasurable. It's a concept. Our brains are not really able to grasp anything that's without measure, other than mathematically. Even then, it can't be fully expressed, but only given as limited examples.
With respect to the Universe, we don't really know if the size of it is finite or infinite. We don't know if the Universe is all there is, or if it is a structure that's part of a larger configuration like a multiverse. What seems reasonable certain is that the Universe had a beginning, it have changed over time, and it is likely to eventually end at some point in the far distant future.
I agree, it's pretty bizarre to think that the observable Universe might cease to exist. But it depends on how you look at it. As we look far out in the Universe, we are also looking far back in time which happens to be closer to the Big Bang. We can see galaxies that appear to be in the early stages of formation. We can see some of the earliest (and oldest) stars known in the Universe, some of which are in our own Milky Way Galaxy. We can assume that some of these ancient galaxies represent that at an earlier time in the Universe there were no galaxies and there were no stars. So the Universe has evolved over time. We are now in an era where stars and galaxies populate a portion of what can be seen.
We can also detect that distant galaxies are moving away at an accelerated rate. We know that galaxies contain lots of gas and dust. In the distant future, as galaxies become more distant from each other, they will eventually consume and use up all the gas and dust they contain. Stars will eventually die. Even farther in the future, assuming that the expansion continues, space will ultimately become black. Even the atoms will lose their energy. All this is known as high entropy. Space itself might continue expanding, but for all intents and purposes, it would be pretty meaningless. In my own point of view, I'd be inclined to think that the Universe would essentially cease to exist, perhaps to a state from which it originated.
It's pretty hard to imagine the Universe with nothing in it. No galaxies. No stars. No life. But that's a long way off in the future, and we can certainly enjoy the Universe as it is right now.
Back to the infinite number of monkeys over an infinite period of time typing out the works of Shakespeare, I still stand on the opinion that it is just an exercise in thinking. For one thing, monkeys would eventually cease to exist over time. Typewriters would eventually decay. These two things are finite. Infinity is a concept because it has no length, duration or limit. When we talk about Planck length and Planck time, anything beyond that breaks down so to speak. Maybe its deeper than that, but we don't really know if that's the case or not. It's unavailable and unknowable to us at the present time.
Harry previously mentioned there are different kinds of infinities. Here's a video (the audio is kind of weak) that gives a better description about the concept of infinity. It's a lot larger and more complex than can be imagined.
So it's not possible that a bunch of monkeys with typewriters could someday write Macbeth?
Probably not, but that wouldn't stop them from producing another 4 seasons of 'Seinfeld'.
WUBBA LUBBA DUB DUB!
I see infinite universes happening close to whatever timeline the observer is in. A world were Napoleon won at Waterloo is only possible if there was one where he lost. Neither one would exist if the dinosaur impact comet struck the moon instead. Or the make-up of whatever supernova that created our solar system was different.
How much different would everything be if we had a Big Boom vs. Bang?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
