I am not a fan of Rick Scott, but he was right on the bullet train (Miami: 2014, hotel)

[BBI]

Originally Posted by GoRays813

In order for any mass transit to work, it needs to be substantially cheaper and faster than Americans driving their own vehicles. Any marginal difference is negligible because we place a large price on convenience. Therefore, any mass transit must be faster and cheaper.

100% agreed. That's why the proposed Tampa to Orlando line made no sense. It would have been no faster than and (considering the local public transportation options) less convenient than driving.

That said, I don't think the answer is to make it more expensive and less convenient to drive. Rather, we should target mass transit where it would be effective. For example, light/commuter rail in the bay area would be faster and more convenient than driving in many instances.

[FloridaKash]

Originally Posted by BBI

100% agreed. That's why the proposed Tampa to Orlando line made no sense. It would have been no faster than and (considering the local public transportation options) less convenient than driving.

That said, I don't think the answer is to make it more expensive and less convenient to drive. Rather, we should target mass transit where it would be effective. For example, light/commuter rail in the bay area would be faster and more convenient than driving in many instances.

Tampa Bay needs HOA Lanes before they even consider light rail. HOV lanes allow people to go where the need to go and cost a lot less. Once it is sown that HOV lanes are used, than we should look at light rail. If there were HOV lanes on the Veteran's Express Way I would go buy a motorcycle tomorrow (motorcycles are typically allowed in HOV lanes) or find someone in my neighborhood to carpool with. My commute would go from 45 minutes to 20 minutes.

[GoRays813]

Originally Posted by BBI

100% agreed. That's why the proposed Tampa to Orlando line made no sense. It would have been no faster than and (considering the local public transportation options) less convenient than driving.

That said, I don't think the answer is to make it more expensive and less convenient to drive. Rather, we should target mass transit where it would be effective. For example, light/commuter rail in the bay area would be faster and more convenient than driving in many instances.

I didn't like the Tampa-Orlando proposal because I knew it wouldn't be done right. Mass transit can work if it fits the A to B requirement where I can reasonably get from A to B in a convenient and cheap method. But if need to take a cab just to get to A, take the train to Orlando, take a cab when I get to Orlando or rent a car, and finally get to B, you've lost me as a consumer. I do agree that there are light rail options in the Bay area that will meet that A to B requirement and those are the options that should be considered. Expand the trolley systems and make our public buses more visually appealing to reduce the stigma associated with bus-transport.

[Tim Tim Tim]

I think even miami to orlando would have been more logical than tampa to orlando. The drive is to short to be willing to get there and then have to rent a car to do what you want to do.

I also would be more interested in LONG distance, from state to state type of runs. I hate flying, If I could take a train and be atleast somewhat in the same time frame (even if its double the time of a flight) I would still do that!

[Crane's Rooster]

Originally Posted by Tim Tim Tim

I think even miami to orlando would have been more logical than tampa to orlando. The drive is to short to be willing to get there and then have to rent a car to do what you want to do.

I also would be more interested in LONG distance, from state to state type of runs. I hate flying, If I could take a train and be atleast somewhat in the same time frame (even if its double the time of a flight) I would still do that!

Agreed, I would have loved to see a train the followed the Turnpike South from Miami into Orlando and onto I75 where the train could eventually make it to Atlanta. Given the business travelers, students and tourists, I think this could be a viable route. If I could pay near the same price to travel to ATL in less than a day, I would take the Train to ATL from ORL. I'm sure many students would use it to travel home on weekends from UCF or UF campus back to ORL or South FL. But that's just my pipe dream.

[BBMW]

It's even bigger than that. I live in NYC, so I know mass transit.

For mass transit to work, the area has to grow up around it. When the first subways were built, there were still farms in upper Manhattan, and there were already existing rail lines. So the city filled in around the rail.

Anyplace new in the US (and the vast majority of FL, including it's cities, qualify), grew up around cars and highways. This results in a different kind of traffic topology. It's a diffuse, lower density, decentralized network structure, where rail centric cities tend to be hub and spoke. It's very difficult to drop a real mass transit system on top of this (LA is trying an failing).

High speed railis a different animal, since it's mostly point to point. But it also depends on local transit to get it's riders to and from the endpoints. That is where the local transit comes in. Since FL doesn't have much of that, the HS rail would not be too useful. If you drive between cities, at least you have your car when you get there.

Originally Posted by GoRays813

It doesn't work because of our culture, not because it is not an economically good idea. In order for any mass transit to work, it needs to be substantially cheaper and faster than Americans driving their own vehicles. Any marginal difference is negligible because we place a large price on convenience. Therefore, any mass transit must be faster and cheaper. Another option to encourage mass-transit is to change our driving laws. By this I mean make a driver's license more expensive, penalties for vehicle violations more expensive, and completely re-structure the way Americans view driving. This could be easier implemented in metropolitan areas. This is an unpopular remedy, but unless we change our driving culture, mass transit will continue to be ignored.

I lived in Germany for two years so I know how mass transit can work but it won't work in the U.S. unless it is done the right way.

[BBI]

Originally Posted by GoRays813

I didn't like the Tampa-Orlando proposal because I knew it wouldn't be done right. Mass transit can work if it fits the A to B requirement where I can reasonably get from A to B in a convenient and cheap method. But if need to take a cab just to get to A, take the train to Orlando, take a cab when I get to Orlando or rent a car, and finally get to B, you've lost me as a consumer. I do agree that there are light rail options in the Bay area that will meet that A to B requirement and those are the options that should be considered. Expand the trolley systems and make our public buses more visually appealing to reduce the stigma associated with bus-transport.

I think it's more couldn't be done right than wouldn't be done right. I live in St. Pete, and I can drive to any place in Orlando faster (and probably cheaper) than I can get there by any means other than private plane. Also, I don't think there's anything you can do to reduce the stigma associated with buses; even "express" buses that solve the convenience issues.

[Crane's Rooster]

This is all assuming that these needed amenities would not have sprung up after the approval of HSR. It's not accurate to characterize the project as the entire scope of the project when it was rejected. It's quite likely that upon approval, many public and private sector projects would have sprung up to compliment the rail and get people to their final destination. For example, had HSR been approved I'm sure they're would have been many private transport companies who would have to tried to profit on ways to get visitors to Tampa Bay from the station to the Airport, Beaches, Stadium, Hotel or whatever their final destination would have been. Where there's a demand and a dollar to be made, someone will always jump in to fill that gap.

Again, AFTER Sunrail was approved 2 additional lines were almost immediately proposed by other municipalities who agreed to contribute money for their own stops on the additional lines. 3 cities came together to propose an express bus system that would get riders from their the stations to the major job, shopping, school and retail centers in those cities. And just recently, a private company has explored building a mag lev train from Orlando International Airport to connect with Sunrail and than head to the Convention Center all with private funds. This is on top of the mini villages being built around the stations. What's to say this type of public/private investment, or probably even greater, would not have followed the approval of HSR? My point is it was rejected too prematurely. We should have explored the cost more in depth and also explored the realistic prospect of complimentary projects to the HSR before just rejecting the money. As stated, most of the private developers waited in AFTER final approval of Sunrail to make the announcement of all these projects. However, they stated with no uncertainty that the projects were directly tied the approval of Sunrail. We can now only imagine and speculate on how many projects HSR would have created.

[Tim Tim Tim]

^ and how much our taxes would have paid for it..

People have to use the rail for other businesses to be attracted to it. Tampa to Orlando would be a waste because its faster/cheaper/easier to hop in your car and drive. By the time you factor in driving to the station, waiting to get on the train, then your "fast" ride then the process of getting off and .... O wait, you have to rent a car now or take a cab.

Unless the train was free, it wouldn't be worth it (even then I would only do it so I can go 100+ mph, not for the practicality of it).

[Crane's Rooster]

And how much of our taxes pay for our roads? It's a given that when it comes to infrastructure on any type of return on investment is through resulting economic development or increase in quality of life. Additionally, it cost more to add 1 mile of an extra lane to I-4 than to most transportation alternatives. Nevertheless I completely understand your argument. It would be hard to convince most of the car centric public to take the HSR over their own vehicle. In todays car society that is difficult outside of just about any area outside the Northeast where mass transit grew with the cities. However, it is not impossible. HSR would be an alternative to the car, not the replacement for a car, that just will not happen in Florida. But for tourists visiting the Orlando theme parks it would encourage them to go visit Tampa Bay if they could jump on the train and get there without driving (and vice versa). For business travelers like myself I actually would prefer jumping on a train and being able to do my preparation or work for my meetings in Tampa instead of driving. And it's not always that convenient driving to and from Tampa and Orlando. Although we are only 90 miles apart I4 is a beast during most driving hours. Through in one accident and it could take over 2.5 hours to make the trip. Just in Orlando itself, it can take up to an hour to get from downtown past the Disney area during the height of the busy season. One additional benefit I did not mention earlier is that HSR would have encouraged and threw weight behind projects like light rail in Tampa or a better bus system.