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User_ID. Sorry but there is a difference between community college and high school. Many of the kids who struggle the worst never go to college at all. You've weeded out probaby half of the kids with learning issues by the time you move on to college at any level. What you don't, usually, have at a community college is the top kids. Community college is, probably, the middle third of kids with the top third going to 4 year universities and the bottom either into trade programs or not at all.
What I posted stands. At least the kids in community college are there because they want to be. No one makes them go when they'd rather drop out. That sets a different stage.
Last stats I read didn't even have half of our kids going on to college of any kind. How can you say it's the same when a huge percentage simply choose not to go? My bet is those are the kids who sit in my classes who have no interest at all in their educations.
For the most part, I can look at my students and tell you who will go to college, who won't and who is likely to flunk out early.
And no, kids don't flunk out in the public school system with any regularity. We try to find, alternate, ways to teach the material if they aren't making it. There are alternative high schools and, worst case, get a GED. We try to find ways to help them graduate. In college, it's up to the student.
What makes someone with a C-average, bachelors and credential from your local state school more qualified to teach than a Ph.d with 5~6 years experience TAing/Lecturing/Teaching and awards for student teaching?
Nobody says they are MORE qualified than someone else, just that they are qualified. A teacher's license is just proof that a person has met the minimum qualifications. It says nothing about a person's relative effectiveness as a teacher.
In FL State Universities a C- is not a passing grade for any class which is required for your degree. You can get C- in a core class, but not in a subject area or education class. In addition, in order to graduate with a degree in education you must have a 2.5 overall GPA.
Nobody says they are MORE qualified than someone else, just that they are qualified. A teacher's license is just proof that a person has met the minimum qualifications. It says nothing about a person's relative effectiveness as a teacher.
In FL State Universities a C- is not a passing grade for any class which is required for your degree. You can get C- in a core class, but not in a subject area or education class. In addition, in order to graduate with a degree in education you must have a 2.5 overall GPA.
Good point. I know in order to get a MA degree in any subject you can't get any grade lower than a B, or they will kick you out of the program. CSU system or UC System.
User_ID. Sorry but there is a difference between community college and high school. Many of the kids who struggle the worst never go to college at all.
There is a difference, but its in degree not kind. More importantly, why do the differences make credentials required in one case but not the other? That is the issue that needs to be addressed.
Your entire post is dedicated to the idea that colleges screw out some of the bottom students. And that is certainly true. Now, it seems really odd that this would be the critical factor in whether credentials are required or not, but lets say it is. Should we then eliminate credential requirements for say French teachers, AP science teachers, etc? These courses will not be taken by the bottom students either. How about schools in wealthy communities? Since there are far fewer under performing students we can wave credential requirements there too.
Stop comparing teachers to doctors, etc. There is no comparison. Our entire university/college system (which again is superior) works well without licensing, not to mention a number of private schools.
One problem with your argument. Professors have a high minimum level of education required to be professors. And then they do their time as TA's and associate professors first. Full professorship is earned. Not licensed but there are requirements one must meet.
And our college system isn't superior anymore. It once was but not today.
Nobody says they are MORE qualified than someone else, just that they are qualified. A teacher's license is just proof that a person has met the minimum qualifications. It says nothing about a person's relative effectiveness as a teacher.
In FL State Universities a C- is not a passing grade for any class which is required for your degree. You can get C- in a core class, but not in a subject area or education class. In addition, in order to graduate with a degree in education you must have a 2.5 overall GPA.
Yup. It just says you meet the minimum requirement. I have to agree that if you don't meet that minimum you shouldn't be teaching. I used to think like User_ID that because I'm a subject matter expert all I needed was experience teaching. Having gone through a teacher certification program and finishing up my first year in high school, I'm going to have to take that back. High school is very different than college.
There is a difference, but its in degree not kind. More importantly, why do the differences make credentials required in one case but not the other? That is the issue that needs to be addressed.
Your entire post is dedicated to the idea that colleges screw out some of the bottom students. And that is certainly true. Now, it seems really odd that this would be the critical factor in whether credentials are required or not, but lets say it is. Should we then eliminate credential requirements for say French teachers, AP science teachers, etc? These courses will not be taken by the bottom students either. How about schools in wealthy communities? Since there are far fewer under performing students we can wave credential requirements there too.
"Screw out"???? I said weed out. And they do. What do you mean the difference is in degree not kind? I stand by what I said, the bottom third is weeded out before college starts. Plus college students are adults who should be capable of teaching themselves. I had many a lousy professor in college where I would have learned nothing if I hadn't taught myself. I'd vote for credentials for professors. I had too many who couldn't teach.
No, not odd at all. Higher education has always relied, heavily, on the student to do the learning. High school has to rely on the teacher to do the teaching. The difference is the students.
And no to eliminating credentials for AP. You need MORE credentials for AP. These may be the top kids but they're still kids. Some are ready for self teaching but others are not.
Is the real question should there be credentialing for teachers? Probably not. The real question is the validity of the current credentials process. Is it reliable and is it valid? Probably not. Perhaps the real reform that is needed to improve education is the rethinking and redoing of the current credentials format.
Discuss on. I throw this in as food for thought.
Is the real question should there be credentialing for teachers? Probably not. The real question is the validity of the current credentials process. Is it reliable and is it valid? Probably not. Perhaps the real reform that is needed to improve education is the rethinking and redoing of the current credentials format.
Discuss on. I throw this in as food for thought.
The part I'd change is not the educational requirements or the testing for your certs. What I'd change is mentoring of new teachers. I would have newer teachers submitting lesson plans to veteran teachers for review. Not to "grade" them but to guide them. The problem is bridging that gap between theory and practice. A lot of the theory I got in college didn't make a whole lot of sense at the time but it does now. Of course I couldn't find it in my notes to save my soul now, lol.
Teachers have to be subject matter experts first and foremost. It doesn't matter how well you teach if you teach wrong. It's amazing how many college students graduate not knowing simple things like the shape of the earth's orbit around the sun (most, mistakenly think it'e elipitcal when it's nearly circular). There are so many misconceptions out there. You can only teach your subject as well as you know it.
I think my MAT program was good but I would have loved a class on tough discpline issues. I'm thinking case studies and how veteran teachers have, successfully, handled common issues. The theory taught in my program was good and theory has to be your starting point. I can't imagine doing this as all on the job training without some theory to start with.
One problem with your argument. Professors have a high minimum level of education required to be professors. And then they do their time as TA's and associate professors first. Full professorship is earned. Not licensed but there are requirements one must meet.
And our college system isn't superior anymore. It once was but not today.
You make a good point there, and you are right. Professors are granted tenure based on some great research or book that they have written.
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Yup. It just says you meet the minimum requirement. I have to agree that if you don't meet that minimum you shouldn't be teaching. I used to think like User_ID that because I'm a subject matter expert all I needed was experience teaching. Having gone through a teacher certification program and finishing up my first year in high school, I'm going to have to take that back. High school is very different than college.
