Early 2012 recruiting class has Texas, Texas A&M, and TCU in the top 10

[cb804]

Originally Posted by shoe01

If I'm not mistaken, APR doesn't penalize teams for early departures to the NFL (the old system of grad. rates did). I could be wrong, though.

Hmmm, you could very well be right.

I was just assuming that the poster I was responding to (acuda) was accurate in that regard.

A quick Google search didn't really clear things up for me. I came across information indicating that it does and does not penalize teams. Damn you, internet.

[shoe01]

This article might explain things a little:

NCAA to publish APRs for coaches in certain sports - ESPN

He also said a school isn't penalized for an early departure if the player was eligible . . .

Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski still believes the formula may expect too much from coaches when it comes to players leaving early for the NBA.

"What control do you have over them if they go early? So then you should go back to the semester preceding, I think, when you did have control. Was he in good academic standing?" Krzyzewski said. "I mean, you have no control. Are you going to make them come back and go to class?"

I guess at least in the case of basketball, some players "coast" in class (or stop going altogether) after they've declared for the Draft (after their season is over), leaving them "ineligible" (though they're not eligible anyway after getting an agent). Similar things might happen in football. I can see an argument though that players could be told something like, "We got you to the next level, now you can repay us a little by finishing your semester, so that future players aren't punished."

[cb804]

Originally Posted by shoe01

This article might explain things a little:

NCAA to publish APRs for coaches in certain sports - ESPN



I guess at least in the case of basketball, some players "coast" in class (or stop going altogether) after they've declared for the Draft (after their season is over), leaving them "ineligible" (though they're not eligible anyway after getting an agent). Similar things might happen in football. I can see an argument though that players could be told something like, "We got you to the next level, now you can repay us a little by finishing your semester, so that future players aren't punished."

Oh, the never-ending clarity provided of the NCAA. It's truly a treat.

[shoe01]

Originally Posted by cb804

Oh, the never-ending clarity provided of the NCAA. It's truly a treat.

Exactly.

[Acuda]

Originally Posted by cb804

FAR more players, eh?

If only you knew what you were talking about re: players and the NFL your case relative to this point would be compelling. Here are the number of players taken from each school since 2007 (the relevant period for the numbers you're discussing) in the NFL draft.

2007:

Cal - 4
UT - 7

Cal's highest pick (M Lynch) goes higher than anybody from UT

2008:

Cal - 6
UT - 5

Cal's highest pick (D Jackson) goes higher than anybody from UT

2009:

Cal - 3
UT - 4

Texas' highest pick (Orakpo) goes 8 slots higher than Cal's highest pick

2010:

Cal - 3
UT - 6

Cal's highest pick (Alualu) goes higher than anybody from UT

2011:

Cal - 4
UT - 4

Cal's highest pick (Jordan) goes higher than anybody from UT

That's right: over the last five years, the mighty University of Texas has sent only 6 more players to the NFL via draft than the measly (by comparison) UC Berkeley. Furthermore, despite Texas sending slightly more players to the NFL in those years, in four of those five years a Golden Bear was drafted before a Longhorn was taken. Additionally, in each of those years, the Bears lost at least one player to the NFL prior to the completion of their senior year, which may or may not affect their APR depending on the circumstances of their departure (I think).

Cal has really only recently been sending players to the pros due to Tosh's ability to somehow convince some great recruits to play for a mediocre team (I assume you know who he is, correct?). As of now, Cal has anywhere from 13-19 less NFL players than Texas (depending on the site). UT has had more than 3x as many players who have played in the NFL. Texas has also had 3 Hall of Famers and Cal has 0.

So, feel free to pick and chose the years all you want, but Cal is not near Texas' level.

As further proof that Cal's athletes are not uber-bright like some Cal homers seem to think, at Cal and UCLA nearly half of their scholarship players are special admits and have huge gaps between the student body (yes, I know Cal is a good school) in SAT scores. Doug Gottlieb, recently said on his ESPN Radio show, his brother (who coaches at CAL- bball) told him only he believes 5, count em 5, players in both football and basketball combined would have ever be able to gain admittance to the school without a special admit.

It matters little if APR is affected, because the point was that contrary to Cal homers naive belief that their athletes are some how smarter, in reality it is simply not accurate and the proof is in the NCAA link provided.

Oh, and Cal is an average team. The Ducks are going to run roughshod over them this year...even with the Cal d-line flopping! WHAP, WHAP!!

[cb804]

Originally Posted by Acuda

Cal has really only recently been sending players to the pros due to Tosh's ability to somehow convince some great recruits to play for a mediocre team (I assume you know who he is, correct?).

False. Tosh wasn't even a full coach until the 2008 season. He was a graduate assistant prior to that. Unless Cal was somehow sending freshmen and sophs to the NFL in the most recent years, his recruiting ability has little to no bearing on the years that I cited. Cal's recruiting classes were down prior to the last two years. His coaching, OTOH, may have if you subscribe to the fact that he makes the guys play at a high level. Whatever the case may be, that's a terrible case to try and make. Everything is relevant when it comes to the program. Tosh is part of the program, even if his recruiting didn't have the effect on the issue that you claimed it did. It'd be like me saying "The Ducks ability to play really good football lately is due to Chip's ability to somehow devise a highly effective system."

Originally Posted by Acuda

As of now, Cal has anywhere from 13-19 less NFL players than Texas (depending on the site). UT has had more than 3x as many players who have played in the NFL. Texas has also had 3 Hall of Famers and Cal has 0. So, feel free to pick and chose the years all you want, but Cal is not near Texas' level.

I'm clearly not claiming that Cal is Texas' equal in this regard and I'd be downright nuts to even compare the legacy of both programs. Texas football likely will always be massive in comparison to the program at UC Berkeley. However, I picked the time frame I did because it's the only one that was relevant to this conversation. The fact of the matter is that in recent years Cal has sent a good number of players to the NFL and has had more than its fair share of high picks. I was responding to numbers from a particular year that you provided. You are, after all, the one who decided to use academic numbers FROM A SINGLE YEAR to state your case. Don't even bother chastising somebody else for daring to "pick and choose the years" that they want and using relatively small sample size when the one you're using to make your case is downright microscopic.

While we're on the topic of the one year that you cited and the idiocy associated with only looking at a single year when discussing the issues at play in this thread, it's worth noting that Cal's APR scores from years prior have actually been alright. The last year was not acceptable and hopefully they program gets its stuff together in that regard. I'd imagine it will. It seems to me that a relatively disastrous last year in terms of APR is dragging on that multi-year APR in the latest report. In the five prior seasons, Cal was always second behind Stanford in the category in terms of P10 teams and it wasn't close. Based on that I have to think the last year was an anomaly for some reason or another. Check out the numbers for each year for yourself:

http://web1.ncaa.org/maps/cVbnp9TaprRelease.jsp (broken link)

"So, feel free to pick and chose the years all you want, but Cal is not" the collection of dummies you disingenuously paint them to be.

Originally Posted by Acuda

As further proof that Cal's athletes are not uber-bright like some Cal homers seem to think, at Cal and UCLA nearly half of their scholarship players are special admits and have huge gaps between the student body (yes, I know Cal is a good school) in SAT scores. Doug Gottlieb, recently said on his ESPN Radio show, his brother (who coaches at CAL- bball) told him only he believes 5, count em 5, players in both football and basketball combined would have ever be able to gain admittance to the school without a special admit.

While Cal fans are inclined to think our athletes are held to a higher level (correctly or incorrectly) than those at other schools, you're crazy IF you think that even more than a slight minority of Cal fans think that all Cal athletes are uber-bright. The fact that roughly half of all Cal athletes are special admits isn't some crazy secret.

Here's something for you to consider: the GPA cutoff at which an out of state student applying to Cal would have be considered for admission via the special admit system is around 3.40. 40% of the last Cal class was from out of state and over 50% of the 2010 class was from out of state.

Now, as an Oregon guy, here's something for you to REALLY consider: until a year or so ago, a GPA of 3.25 would gain you AUTOMATIC ADMISSION to UO. They bumped it up to 3.4 last year and are overhauling the system now, but that's all relative to the time period we're discussing.

I wonder what a special admit to UO looks like?