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Old 11-07-2013, 08:56 AM
 
351 posts, read 370,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJJG2012 View Post
Some people have been using cannabis since the '60s or '70s & seem to be in good physical health & much more sane than many. Few cannabis users go on to other drugs as a result of using. Some just have a curiosity about all drugs and are bigger risk takers.

Cannabis lacks 3 of the characteristics normally associated with a narcotic: There is no known lethal dose (non-toxic), it does not keep taking more & more to get the same effect, there are not extreme withdrawal effects. Also, there is a point where the effect plateaus & no additional pleasure or impairment is possible.

Our recent Libertarian Presidential candidate Gary Johnson used cannabis 3 years to manage pain when he fell 50 feet, with broken bones in back, rib & knee. Anyone want to say no medical value? He did not want addicting opiates, not at any time during the 3 years. He's been saying legalize it since he was guv of New Mexico in 1999. He does not use it now.

I've never heard of anyone dipping a joint in PCP, would have to be very, very rare if it actually did happen. I will have to look up this Foundation for a Drug Free World & see what they are really are about, besides getting lots of money. Best wishes.


There is a difference between pot for medical purposes on cancer patients supervised and controlled by doctors and pot for recreational mainstream purposes (for fun) for anybody . I hope you know the difference.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:15 AM
 
351 posts, read 370,789 times
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More facts:

On a Urine Drug Test, THC will appear as a positive within 2-5 hours of use. How long it will still show on a urine drug test is estimated based on frequency of use, but does not take into account the weight and body fat of the marijuana user:
  • One Time User may show positive for 1-6 days
  • Moderate User may show positive for 7-13 days
  • Frequent User may show positive for 15 or more days
  • Heavy User may show positive for 30 or more days
  • Some Heavy Pot Smokers have reported being positive 45-90 days after quitting




if most employers in the government and private sector require DRUG TESTING even for flipping burgers, explain to me how legalizing pot and making it mainstream which will increase people smoking it will help the economy since their options are very limited in the job market and the government then has to take care of them with welfare and other handouts?


Puerto Rico already has a high unemployment to start and a large % of people on welfare, this will raise it more......how does this helps the economy again?




another legit reason to NOT make pot legal and mainstream............another angle that some of you didn't bother to research.


Like the Chinese say, BEWARE OF WHAT YOU WISH FOR!
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:52 AM
 
3,564 posts, read 4,400,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush99 View Post
1) How many lives and families have alcohol destroyed? how many teenagers? how many teenagers have killed innocent people behind the wheel under the influence? take a guess..........its hard to take back alcohol because is part of our culture especially in Puerto Rico, then why would you want another Mainstream killer drug out there?.......what could possibly go wrong?

2) Not everybody in our society are responsible parents and not everybody take personal responsibility to task but we sure pay for their decisions, don't we? . That's why we have a mess of broken homes, high % addicts, high crime, children out of wedlock, a high % on welfare continuing the cycle of poverty. Addiction is a huge part of it.



3) Yeah, Im sure you have trust in the government to control it and keep it away from children. LMAO! they can't even secure the border and stop the cr@p from coming in but they sure can control it and protect us. Im sure good things will come out of it just like alcohol.

1. Alcohol has affected many lives and not in the best of ways. As far as I am aware, the same cannot be said about MJ.

2. I agree. Not all parents are responsible. It takes much sacrifice and dedication. It's difficult, but not impossible!

3. I have no response for this comment. Remember dude, this is a discussion, not an arm wrestling contest. Nothing is gained by entrenching ourselves in defense of our arguments. Nothing is learned nor gained from divisiveness.
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:08 AM
 
351 posts, read 370,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
1. Alcohol has affected many lives and not in the best of ways. As far as I am aware, the same cannot be said about MJ.

2. I agree. Not all parents are responsible. It takes much sacrifice and dedication. It's difficult, but not impossible!

3. I have no response for this comment. Remember dude, this is a discussion, not an arm wrestling contest. Nothing is gained by entrenching ourselves in defense of our arguments. Nothing is learned nor gained from divisiveness.


Comparing apples and oranges. MJ is not mainstream as alcohol. Alcohol has the backing of the government and the media and corporations promoting it. If MJ has the same backing and mainstream promotion in corporate america as alcohol, it will have the same effect in time, give it 50 years or less. That's why we shouldn't add another "legal" mainstream drug in the market.


This is a discussion, your argument is if the government controls it and taxes it then it would be alright and if we have enough responsible parents, kids wouldn't touch it. That's not reality. Like changing drug dealers from the cartels and your typical drug dealer in the corner to the government and corporate america will make the drug safe or make it less accessible to our kids.....I say quite the opposite and would open a whole can of worms that I already mention from addictions and employment and limiting the options in the job market and raise welfare because of it.

That's not entrenching it, those are valid facts that some who are in favor of legalizing pot didn't even bother to research or weigh in.
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:52 AM
 
3,564 posts, read 4,400,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush99 View Post
Comparing apples and oranges. MJ is not mainstream as alcohol. Alcohol has the backing of the government and the media and corporations promoting it. If MJ has the same backing and mainstream promotion in corporate america as alcohol, it will have the same effect in time, give it 50 years or less. That's why we shouldn't add another "legal" mainstream drug in the market.


This is a discussion, your argument is if the government controls it and taxes it then it would be alright and if we have enough responsible parents, kids wouldn't touch it. That's not reality. Like changing drug dealers from the cartels and your typical drug dealer in the corner to the government and corporate america will make the drug safe or make it less accessible to our kids.....I say quite the opposite and would open a whole can of worms that I already mention from addictions and employment and limiting the options in the job market and raise welfare because of it.

That's not entrenching it, those are valid facts that some who are in favor of legalizing pot didn't even bother to research or weigh in.
So, given that you're not in favor of MJ legalization, are you saying that we should continue allowing the gov't to execute its failed "War On Drugs?"
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Scranton
1,384 posts, read 3,179,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush99 View Post
5) Unfortunately, neither states nor the federal government can expect any net gain with marijuana legalization. In fact, legalization will cost America. For every $1 in state and federal revenue from alcohol and tobacco taxes, America spends more than $10 in social costs, according to a complication of US government and other studies cited by the White House.
And how much are we spending right now on the "war on drugs"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush99 View Post
another thing that you ignore, many employers from the federal government and private sector do drug testing for hiring and that's not going to change. Pot stays in your system for a while.

Explain to me how POT HEADS are going to be productive citizens if their job options are very limited. Even flipping burgers at Mcdonalds require drug testing.
They can become politicians. No drug testing needed.
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:34 PM
 
351 posts, read 370,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
So, given that you're not in favor of MJ legalization, are you saying that we should continue allowing the gov't to execute its failed "War On Drugs?"

because many don't think that by legalizing pot and making it a mainstream drug for Corporate America and government to make profits will make a dent to the war on drugs or people in prison or bring down addiction in the country.


The Baker Institute came with a report on the legalization of pot:


What is the purpose for the push to legalize marijuana? Is it because there are those waiting in the wings who wish to legitimize their illicit endeavors and ill-gotten gains? Is it because there are designs on the funding used to combat illicit drug demand by those who want to find funds for their own programs? Is it because habitual users want to come out of the closet? Is it because it is viewed as a “silver bullet” against cartel violence? Perhaps all these factors and more come into play.
The first premise often proposed is that the war of drugs has been a failure. I disagree. First, we have no idea how much worse the drug consumption problem might be had the country had a laissez faire policy to drug use in the past decades. Second, drug demand reduction has been successful in the last decade, particularly amongst teenagers. According to Drug Enforcement Administration statistics released for the period 2000 to 2011, meth use is down 42 percent, cocaine by 48 percent, crack by 50 percent and LSD by 50 percent. Clearly emphasis by communities on education has paid off with teens. The drugs that have not seen the same levels of decline, misused legal prescription drugs and marijuana, have a different dynamic: one is already legal, and the other has seen significant time and energy devoted to changing the perception of its image and diminishing the danger of usage.
The second premise usually proposed is that legalizing marijuana will reduce the level of violence perpetrated by drug-related organizations. This argument also is a fallacy. Think of the cartels as part mafia and part sophisticated multi-national corporation. While absolute marijuana sales are substantial, marijuana is only a small portion of total profits. Approximately 60 percent of illicit cartel profits come from activities other than drugs. Of the 40 percent that does come from drug related activity, there are a variety of product lines including cocaine, meth, heroin, synthetic drugs (incense and bath salts), and illegal sale of legal drugs. In addition, marijuana is the one crop that is regularly grown by the consumer. This also does not take into account the substantial legitimate income cartels derive from the investment of ill-gotten gains into legitimate enterprises. The experience of recent years has engendered an escalating culture of violence in Mexico as rival parties strive for dominance and/or territory. When proceeds from just the United States are likely greater than the gross domestic product of any Central American or Caribbean nation, much is at stake.
So what parties might be interested in promoting legalization of marijuana? Perhaps foreign countries that are considering legalization themselves and ultimately feel it might be a valuable cash crop. They might do well to look at the experience of those that have legalized marijuana, and are now rethinking the wisdom of the move, because of the increase in crime. Then there are the domestic users, who no longer want to hide in the shadows. Often the debate on marijuana includes a large number of habitual users.
Lost in the narrative of those who promote marijuana usage are the consequences to society as a whole. Marijuana is known to impair judgment and compromise decision-making. What happens to citizens driving after smoking? What happens when employees show up to work still high? States that have legalized medical marijuana, such as Arizona and Oregon, are still trying to sort out this issue. What are the options for others unwillingly subjected to the stupefying second hand smoke that also is more damaging to cells and DNA than cigarette some? How much will the chances increase that teenagers will enter the drug culture? Studies have found marijuana hinders the development of teenage brains. Where medical marijuana has been approved, it has become clear many without a medical need have received the card.
Drug legalization promoters often prefer to dismiss these arguments, rather than acknowledging their validity. Legalizing marijuana sends our society down a slippery path based upon unfounded premises.
Joan Neuhaus Schaan is the fellow in homeland security and terrorism at the Baker Institute, the coordinator of the Texas Security Forum, and serves on the advisory board of the Transborder International Police Association. She has served as the executive director of the Houston-Harris County Regional Homeland Security Advisory Council and on the board of Crime Stoppers of Houston, Inc.

http://blog.chron.com/bakerblog/2012...is-a-bad-idea/

Last edited by Rush99; 11-07-2013 at 04:42 PM..
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:39 PM
 
351 posts, read 370,789 times
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By Hudson Institute, Sun, May 06, 2012

By John P. Walters
Even smart people make mistakes—sometimes surprisingly large ones. A current example is drug legalization, which way too many smart people consider a good idea. They offer three bad arguments.

First, they contend, "the drug war has failed"—despite years of effort we have been unable to reduce the drug problem. Actually, as imperfect as surveys may be, they present overwhelming evidence that the drug problem is growing smaller and has fallen in response to known, effective measures.

Americans use illegal drugs at substantially lower rates than when systematic measurement began in 1979—down almost 40 percent. Marijuana use is down by almost half since its peak in the late 1970s, and cocaine use is down by 80 percent since its peak in the mid-1980s. Serious challenges with crack, meth, and prescription drug abuse have not changed the broad overall trend: Drug use has declined for the last 40 years, as has drug crime.

The decades of decline coincide with tougher laws, popular disapproval of drug use, and powerful demand reduction measures such as drug treatment in the criminal justice system and drug testing. The drop also tracks successful attacks on supply—as in the reduction of cocaine production in Colombia and the successful attack on meth production in the United States. Compared with most areas of public policy, drug control measures are quite effective when properly designed and sustained.

Drug enforcement keeps the price of illegal drugs at hundreds of times the simple cost of producing them. To destroy the criminal market, legalization would have to include a massive price cut, dramatically stimulating use and addiction. Legalization advocates typically ignore the science. Risk varies a bit, but all of us and a variety of other living things—monkeys, rats, and mice—can become addicted if exposed to addictive substances in sufficient concentrations, frequently enough, and over a sufficient amount of time. It is beyond question that more people using drugs, more frequently, will result in more addiction.

About a third of illegal drug users are thought to be addicted (or close enough to it to need treatment), and the actual number is probably higher. There are now at least 21 million drug users, and at least 7 million need treatment. How much could that rise? Well, there are now almost 60 million cigarette smokers and over 130 million who use alcohol each month. It is irrational to believe that legalization would not increase addiction by millions.

We can learn from experience. Legalization has been tried in various forms, and every nation that has tried it has reversed course sooner or later. America's first cocaine epidemic occurred in the late 19th century, when there were no laws restricting the sale or use of the drug. That epidemic led to some of the first drug laws, and the epidemic subsided. Over a decade ago the Netherlands was the model for legalization. However, the Dutch have reversed course, as have Sweden and Britain (twice). The newest example for legalization advocates is Portugal, but as time passes the evidence there grows of rising crime, blood-borne disease, and drug usage.

The lessons of history are the lessons of the street. Sections of our cities have tolerated or accepted the sale and use of drugs. We can see for ourselves that life is not the same or better in these places, it is much worse. If they can, people move away and stay away. Every instance of legalization confirms that once you increase the number of drug users and the addicted, it is difficult to undo your mistake.

The most recent form of legalization—pretending smoked marijuana is medicine—is following precisely the pattern of past failure. The majority of the states and localities that have tried it are moving to correct their mistake, from California to Michigan. Unfortunately, Washington, D.C., is about to start down this path. It will end badly.

The second false argument for legalization is that drug laws have filled our prisons with low-level, non-violent offenders. The prison population has increased substantially over the past 30 years, but the population on probation is much larger and has grown almost as fast. The portion of the prison population associated with drug offenses has been declining, not growing. The number of diversion programs for substance abusers who commit crimes has grown to such an extent that the criminal justice system is now the single largest reason Americans enter drug treatment.

Despite constant misrepresentation of who is in prison and why, the criminal justice system has steadily and effectively focused on violent and repeat offenders. The unfortunate fact is that there are too many people in prison because there are too many criminals. With the rare exceptions that can be expected from human institutions, the criminal justice system is not convicting the innocent.

Most recently, crime and violence in Central America and Mexico have become the third bad reason to legalize drugs. Even some foreign leaders have joined in claiming that violent groups in Latin America would be substantially weakened or eliminated if drugs were legal.

Many factors have driven this misguided argument. First, while President Álvaro Uribe in Colombia and President Felipe Calderón in Mexico demonstrated brave and consequential leadership against crime and terror, such leadership is rare. For both the less competent and the corrupt, the classic response in politics is to blame someone else for your failure.

The real challenge is to establish the rule of law in places that have weak, corrupt, or utterly inadequate institutions of justice. Yes, the cartels and violent gangs gain money from the drug trade, but they engage in the full range of criminal activities—murder for hire, human trafficking, bank robbery, protection rackets, car theft, and kidnapping, among others. They seek to control areas and rule with organized criminal force. This is not a new phenomenon, and legalizing drugs will not stop it. In fact, U.S. drug laws are a powerful means of working with foreign partners to attack violent groups and bring their leaders to justice.

Legalization advocates usually claim that alcohol prohibition caused organized crime in the United States and its repeal ended the threat. This is widely believed and utterly false. Criminal organizations existed before and after prohibition. Violent criminal organizations exist until they are destroyed by institutions of justice, by each other, or by authoritarian measures fueled by popular fear. No honest criminal justice official or family in this hemisphere will be safer tomorrow if drugs are legalized—and the serious among them know it.

Are the calls for legalization merely superficial—silly background noise in the context of more fundamental problems? Does this talk make any difference? Well, suppose someone you know said, "Crack and heroin and meth are great, and I am going to give them to my brothers and sisters, my children and my grandchildren." If you find that statement absurd, irresponsible, or obscene, then at some level you appreciate that drugs cannot be accepted in civilized society. Those who talk of legalization do not speak about giving drugs to their families, of course; they seem to expect drugs to victimize someone else's family.

Irresponsible talk of legalization weakens public resolve against use and addiction. It attacks the moral clarity that supports responsible behavior and the strength of key institutions. Talk of legalization today has a real cost to our families and families in other places. The best remedy would be some thoughtful reflection on the drug problem and what we say about it.

John P. Walters is Chief Operating Officer and Executive Vice President of Hudson Institute and former director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy.
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Old 11-07-2013, 05:58 PM
 
355 posts, read 717,396 times
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Rush, mi amigo. As much as these diatribes are appreciated, the amount of time you've dedicated to this forum has left your radio followers with much too much dead (but well warmed) air.
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Old 11-07-2013, 07:08 PM
 
351 posts, read 370,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unPescador View Post
Rush, mi amigo. As much as these diatribes are appreciated, the amount of time you've dedicated to this forum has left your radio followers with much too much dead (but well warmed) air.



my radio followers? I didn't get your comment.
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