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My brother was totally shocked when his employer fired him with no notice. At the meeting where he was terminated, they told he was being fired for an infraction of sanitation rules, which had been witnessed by a manager (the one who was firing him). He would never intentionally violate sanitation rules, but some things are kind of open to interpretation. At first he couldn't even recall the incident. Then he remembered he was doing something and the manager said "are you sure you want to do it that way?" he explained why he thought it was okay and continued about his business. The manager said nothing else. Nothing else was said about it until two weeks later when he was told he was being fired because of that incident because "if you are doing that what else are you doing that we don't know about?"
Now, if he was deliberately violating a rule, why would he do it in front of his manager? If he misinterpreted the rule, why wouldn't the manager just say "we don't do it that way, don't do it again?" He had worked there for almost a year and had had only good feedback from his direct boss and management. He's been in the industry for many years and knows the sanitation rules, sometimes you take shortcuts but he would never do anything that would endanger anyone. In fact, he was frustrated because he felt that others he worked with did not have as high standards as he did and he didn't feel empowered to call people on it.
In any case, the incident was never documented that he was aware of, and he was never presented with a written reason for his termination. We assume the real reason had to be because he was hired by a prior set of managers who had basically begged him to take the job and had hired him at a pretty high salary, the new managers probably figured they could hire someone cheaper if they could get rid of him. Disgusting.
They have denied his unemployment. He wants to appeal, is it worth hiring a lawyer? How much does it usually cost? How likely is it he will win on appeal in PA? Thanks in advance for the help.
There are some experts who will come along and give you some excellent advice on what your brother needs to say to the deputy who calls. Take their advice. Feel free to take this advice and show it to an attorney, but we here have all beat our employers by ourselves without lawyers.
First off, how do you know they denied his unemployment ? Did anyone from unemployment speak to your brother yet?
How does he have money for a lawyer, and need unemployment? He should really save the money a lawyer is going to charge for upcoming bills. He got fired. You can't get unemployment if your were fired. I'm sure it's documented somewhere. I'm guessing it took two weeks for them to get their ducks in a row, and check with their lawyers to see if everything was in the up and up from when the incident occurred. Most companies check with a lawyer before they terminate people now because they don't want to have to pay their unemployment. Hopefully he finds a new job soon.
He showed me the notice of determination. the findings were:
discharged for disregarding basic sanitation standards (totally not true)
employer showed information showing claimant was involved in the incident
"showed willful disregard for employers interests"
no information showing claimant had been warned
conduct was serious enough to warrant a dismissal without a warning (two weeks later?)
insufficient information provided to show if claimant had good cause for his actions
He has to fill out an appeal - what should he say are the reasons for disagreeing with the determination?
He wouldn't deny he did what they said he did - he would only that it was an egregious and deliberate violation.
Lets say you work in a kitchen and you see someone spit in the soup. Okay, obviously you fire the person on the spot.
Let's say you work in a kitchen and you see someone put a soup in the refrigerator without cooling it all the way down. (that's not what happened, but for example). You would tell them to take it out, explain why it is important that it be cooled all the way down, write them up, and tell them you never want to see them do that again.
If you saw someone put the soup in the fridge, asked them if they thought it was okay, then let them leave it there and said nothing else, how bad could you possibly think it was?
Should he really get into all the details of exactly what happened on the form?
Spazzcat, he has good savings and will probably get a new job shortly. But he is livid at these jerks for the sleazy way they have treated him, and if he is entitled to unemployment why shouldn't he claim it? He worked very hard for them - even went in on his day off during the hurricane, risking his life in the middle of the storm, because the rule was that managers had to come in in emergencies - and then they fired him five days later. They made up a reason to fire him so they could hire someone at a lower salary.
It is not true that you can't get unemployment if you are fired - only if you are fired for deliberate misconduct. I believe the burden is on the employer to show there was sufficient cause. An employer can fire you for any reason at all, but there should be some consequences to them for firing people who are doing their best at their job.
Since he is entitled to the maximum payout, if a lawyer isn't hugely expensive it might be worth it.
He got fired. You can't get unemployment if your were fired. I'm sure it's documented somewhere.
You are completely wrong. People who are fired get UE every day of the week. They win appeals, too - every day of the week.
Firing is not grounds for denial of benefits unless willful misconduct can be proven. States vary in latitude. Some are far more claimant-friendly than others. Short of theft or physical attack, a firing does not result in denial of benefits.
A blanket statement that "you can't get unemployment if you are fired" is wrong.
A blanket statement that "you can't get unemployment for a rules violation" is wrong.
A blanket statement that "you can't get unemployment if warnings are documented" is wrong.
He showed me the notice of determination. the findings were:
discharged for disregarding basic sanitation standards (totally not true)
employer showed information showing claimant was involved in the incident
"showed willful disregard for employers interests"
no information showing claimant had been warned
conduct was serious enough to warrant a dismissal without a warning (two weeks later?)
insufficient information provided to show if claimant had good cause for his actions
He has to fill out an appeal - what should he say are the reasons for disagreeing with the determination?
Appeal this decision. Because the employer contested, PA took the easy way out with a denial. If your brother doesn't appeal, employer wins.
He doesn't need a lawyer. He needs to draft an appeal clearly stating what happened and that it was not his understanding that what he did was rules violation, nor did the manager, at any time, say it was. There was no written or verbal warning. And so on and so forth.
The UE examiners usually find in favor of the employer, happy to let the appeals process sort out any questions. If the examiner had granted benefits, the employer may have appealed that decision, as well. Chances are if your brother wins on appeal, that will be the end of it.
Should he get into the details when he writes up the appeal (this is exactly what I did, this why I did what I did, this is why I didn't think it was a violation, the manager didn't tell me I was wrong or ask me to stop, I didn't think there was any problem until I was suddenly fired, I had no warning and was never given anything in writing?) Or is that too much and he should just be more general say I didn't have willful disregard, I was not warned or even reprimanded, I had good cause to do what I did, and I was not terminated until two weeks after this "serious conduct" occurred? and save the details for the phone or hearing?
the whole thing makes me sick. he has a wife and family, they just booted him without severance or insurance for no reason after a year of hard work and now they appeal his unemployment? because the prior management begged him to take the job and he asked for a higher salary than he thought they would go for and they gave it to him? what the hell is wrong with people. they have no shame.
he'll go on to better things but they should be made to pay, IMHO.
My brother was totally shocked when his employer fired him with no notice. At the meeting where he was terminated, they told he was being fired for an infraction of sanitation rules, which had been witnessed by a manager (the one who was firing him). He would never intentionally violate sanitation rules, but some things are kind of open to interpretation. At first he couldn't even recall the incident. Then he remembered he was doing something and the manager said "are you sure you want to do it that way?" he explained why he thought it was okay and continued about his business. The manager said nothing else. Nothing else was said about it until two weeks later when he was told he was being fired because of that incident because "if you are doing that what else are you doing that we don't know about?"
Now, if he was deliberately violating a rule, why would he do it in front of his manager? If he misinterpreted the rule, why wouldn't the manager just say "we don't do it that way, don't do it again?" He had worked there for almost a year and had had only good feedback from his direct boss and management. He's been in the industry for many years and knows the sanitation rules, sometimes you take shortcuts but he would never do anything that would endanger anyone. In fact, he was frustrated because he felt that others he worked with did not have as high standards as he did and he didn't feel empowered to call people on it.
In any case, the incident was never documented that he was aware of, and he was never presented with a written reason for his termination. We assume the real reason had to be because he was hired by a prior set of managers who had basically begged him to take the job and had hired him at a pretty high salary, the new managers probably figured they could hire someone cheaper if they could get rid of him. Disgusting.
They have denied his unemployment. He wants to appeal, is it worth hiring a lawyer? How much does it usually cost? How likely is it he will win on appeal in PA? Thanks in advance for the help.
I really wish you could give specifics. The story sounds kind of intriguing and nobody knows your 'brother' and even if they did, he was in the right ... right?
PA unemployment seems really lax. I collected from them and they don't really care about much. On the other hand, it's hard to get anybody on the phone and they don't have live bodies to attend to your issues like other states do. You're probably going to have to play the phone game.
Should he get into the details when he writes up the appeal (this is exactly what I did, this why I did what I did, this is why I didn't think it was a violation, the manager didn't tell me I was wrong or ask me to stop, I didn't think there was any problem until I was suddenly fired, I had no warning and was never given anything in writing?) Or is that too much and he should just be more general say I didn't have willful disregard, I was not warned or even reprimanded, I had good cause to do what I did, and I was not terminated until two weeks after this "serious conduct" occurred? and save the details for the phone or hearing?
Lay out numerically, or with bullet points, the following:
what I did
why I did it
I didn't think it was a violation - (nothing in rules book)
manager didn't tell me I was wrong or ask me to stop
I had no warning and was never given anything in writing
With perhaps a short explanation under each item. They have to prove intentional rules violation. It didn't happen.
Last edited by Ariadne22; 12-07-2012 at 07:58 PM..
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