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LOL!! Yes, it is curious how they protest "too much"! And like over here, it does seem to be that "certain parts" of the population are more touchy about it than others. BTW, its also interesting to note how often cultural and ancestral conflicts seem to be at the heart of so many conflicts now worldwide... re: Chechens, Serbs, Palestinians, N. Ireland, Somalia, Sunnis, Taliban, Kurds, muslims in the E.U., "illegals", etc.... even fighting the Civil War all over again (aka, the "culture wars") here in the U.S.. And IMHO, where matters of "culture" often seem most "sensitive", is also where things seem to break down along issues of ancestry, class, economics and education. Salon: Red State USA: Poor, Scared, Less Educated, and Left Behind
Perhaps you're being too literal. If you care to volunteer your ancestry that's fine, but am mainly asking whether folks can still notice the differences between English, Irish, Welsh and Scots in everyday life. And I merely point out "the Troubles" as an example, that "culture" and "ancestry" are obviously still a very big deal in parts of the UK (despite the too-insistent 'denial' of some). Besides, most folks simply ignore the threads that seem redundant or they're not interested in, and move on.... instead of picking a quarrel with 'em!
BTW, if you bothered to read the link you're complaining about, you'll also note that "the convict stain" is a phrase commonly used to describe the sensitivities & mixed feelings (aka, ambivalence) of many Aussies re: their own founding... by thousands of convicts, forcibly resettled from British prisons to help build Australia. So as the article notes, for many years Australian literature simply pretended that their "inconvenient" past never existed (or that it was simply "unimportant")!
The thing is mateo45 despite protestations to the contrary Britain (especially England) is overwhelmingly obsessed with class and ancestry. It is really impossible to come to any other conclusion when the national anthem is an ode to the lineage and nobility of one Royal King or Queen and when a THIRD Of BRITAIN belongs to a tiny select group of very wealthy aristocrats.
A group of people who not only exert huge influence on policy through their titles but who also personally benefit from EU farming subsidies. The Duke Of Westminster for instance is worth over 7 billion pounds. it isn't by accident that Government sees fit to divert taxpayer's money (equivalent to around £296 annually per household) to some of the wealthiest aristocrat landowners in the land in preference to other seemingly more urgent priorities:- We're all paying for Europe's gift to our aristocrats and utility companies | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian
The political and media establishment are positively defined by their Oxbridge connections and even now you can see the names of newly qualified young upstarts from Oxbridge and Cambridge stumbling into prestigious positions at newspapers where their mother/father is a journalist. Usually from the same networks of power and usually having taken a short cut through the corridor of preferential treatment.
Britain is more polarised than ever. We have the most privileged Government cabinet in a generation at a time of poverty and widespread unemployment. The convenient answer as well as the fashionable answer is to pretend that ancestry or heritage doesn't matter.
But then of course that message is insistently relayed by media commentators who are all too aware of precisely how much it does and who also have a very vested interest in preserving the status quo so that their heir can stumble like they once did into a six figure salary and a key column in a major publication by the time they've turned the age of 22.
And although alot of this is class related the evidence is undeniable that ancestry plays a pivotal role in a country where a third of the land belongs to a group of people through no mean feat of enterprise but through inherited title and status alone. I suppose the argument being that if you owned all that land you wouldn't want the people getting too caught up in all this hereditary privilege stuff either.
Oh, and by the way, the second chamber in British Parliament is a House Of Lords where hereditary peerages are often the only thing that gives many priveleged aristocrats a seat at the heart of British democracy. There are over 700 peers who hold titles that may be inherited.
Not hung up by ancestry? Yeah sure, and I'm the Duchess Of Middlesex
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 09-24-2012 at 12:05 PM..
Lately have been re-reading Albions Seed, about the influence of the 4 main folkways that emigrated from the British Isles and largely first founded the United States (from East Anglia, S. England, North Midlands, and the Scotts-Irish, aka, Ulster Scots).
And while the U.S. is much more diverse now, the argument is that the distinct values and differences between those founding cultures, are still alive today... along with specific attitudes re: things like education, the military, the role of government, civic responsibility, race & class differences, etc..
Sounds like an interesting book to me.
It states that the people who settled in Virginia were from the south of England. That would be my mother's side of the family.
Some years ago, I met a guy from Canada who was working temporarily in our office. I saw a photo he had of his mother, and it was amazing how much she looked like Queen Elizabeth in her younger years. It turned out that his mother was Queen Elizabeth's cousin. He spent a lot of time in the U.K. because of his mother's connections. He mentioned once that I looked more like the people who lived in the south of England.
I think he was seeing the looks I inherited from my Grandfather whose family was Welsh. I also had a friend who grew up in the U.S., but was a British citizen until a few years ago when she finally got her citizenship for a job in the federal government. Her family was Welsh and everywhere I went with her, people thought we were sisters.
Anyway, I definitely think groups who came from different areas of the U.K. to America had somewhat different values. Someone up-thread mentioned the book on the Scottish immigrants called "Born Fighting". I've read a little about that book and it's definitely a different value system than what I see in my family. I have a friend whose family was Scots-Irish and it has always seemed to me that they have a tougher outlook on life and that the earlier generations of their family in America struggled more.
Last edited by Shooting Stars; 09-24-2012 at 11:48 AM..
This cultural history explains the European settlement of the United States as voluntary migrations from four English cultural centers.
Families of zealous, literate Puritan yeomen and artisans from urbanized East Anglia established a religious community in Massachusetts (1629-40); royalist cavaliers headed by Sir William Berkeley and young, male indentured servants from the south and west of England built a highly stratified agrarian way of life in Virginia (1640-70); egalitarian Quakers of modest social standing from the North Midlands resettled in the Delaware Valley and promoted a social pluralism (1675-1715); and, in by far the largest migration (1717-75), poor borderland families of English, Scots, and Irish fled a violent environment to seek a better life in a similarly uncertain American back country.
These four cultures, reflected in regional patterns of language, architecture, literacy, dress, sport, social structure, religious beliefs, and familial ways, persisted in the American settlements. The final chapter shows the significance of these regional cultures for American history up to the present. Insightful, fresh, interesting, and well-written, this synthesis of traditional and more current historical scholarship provides a model for interpretations of the American character. Subsequent volumes of this promised multi-volume work will be eagerly awaited. Highly recommended for the general reader and the scholar.
- David Szatmary, Univ. of Washington, Seattle
Copyright 1989 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Probably more interesting to Americans because it would explain a lot about ourselves.
Yes, foremost amongst them that I served during the American Revolution.
There are Middlesex counties in Virginia, Massachusetts and New Jersey, named for the historical Middlesex County in England (since absorbed into Greater London).
Source for notated version: the music manuscript of Captain George Bush (1753-1797), a fiddler and officer in the Continental army during the American Revolution [Keller].
Perhaps involved into the Bush family dynasty. And there was me thinking you had no interest in such affairs. You're a dark horse, unearthing a hidden gem like this Balders. Bridging the Atlantic with this marvellous tale of 4 counties.
Could even be a trump card on that other thread about counties. Engrossing stuff.
Bravo! Not sure what George from Seinfeld is doing in the caption at the top of the page but he cuts an elegant swathe in his new occupation. I like the cut of his jib Balders I really do.
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 09-24-2012 at 02:09 PM..
Yes, foremost amongst them that I served during the American Revolution.
There are Middlesex counties in Virginia, Massachusetts and New Jersey, named for the historical Middlesex County in England (since absorbed into Greater London).
Source for notated version: the music manuscript of Captain George Bush (1753-1797), a fiddler and officer in the Continental army during the American Revolution [Keller].
Perhaps involved into the Bush family dynasty. And there was me thinking you had no interest in such affairs. Your a dark horse, unearthing a hidden gem like this Balders. Bridging the Atlantic with this marvellous tale of 4 counties.
Could even be a trump card on that other thread about counties. Engrossing stuff.
Bravo! Not sure what George from Seinfeld is doing in the caption at the top of the page but he cuts an elegant swathe in his new occupation. I like the cut of his jib Balders I really do.
Having little interest in discussing isn't the same as not knowing.
Having little interest in discussing isn't the same as not knowing.
I can picture it now at the West End Premier:- 'A Tale Of Four Counties' the musical detailing the evolution of the Bush family from humble origins in Yorkshire to the four counties of Middlesex and a signature ode to the revolutionary war.
Stirring stuff Balders I have to say.
As I said, quite the dark horse when you want to be. Thanks for imparting your wisdom all the same.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,458,803 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldrick
Having little interest in discussing isn't the same as not knowing.
That's fine, then no doubt you won't mind if the rest of us do have an interest in "discussing" it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear&Whiskey
The thing is mateo45 despite protestations to the contrary Britain (especially England) is overwhelmingly obsessed with class and ancestry. It is really impossible to come to any other conclusion when the national anthem is an ode to the lineage and nobility of one Royal King or Queen and when a THIRD Of BRITAIN belongs to a tiny select group of very wealthy aristocrats.
A group of people who not only exert huge influence on policy through their titles but who also personally benefit from EU farming subsidies. The Duke Of Westminster for instance is worth over 7 billion pounds. it isn't by accident that Government sees fit to divert taxpayer's money (equivalent to around £296 annually per household) to some of the wealthiest aristocrat landowners in the land in preference to other seemingly more urgent priorities:- We're all paying for Europe's gift to our aristocrats and utility companies | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian
The political and media establishment are positively defined by their Oxbridge connections and even now you can see the names of newly qualified young upstarts from Oxbridge and Cambridge stumbling into prestigious positions at newspapers where their mother/father is a journalist. Usually from the same networks of power and usually having taken a short cut through the corridor of preferential treatment.
Britain is more polarised than ever. We have the most privileged Government cabinet in a generation at a time of poverty and widespread unemployment. The convenient answer as well as the fashionable answer is to pretend that ancestry or heritage doesn't matter.
But then of course that message is insistently relayed by media commentators who are all too aware of precisely how much it does and who also have a very vested interest in preserving the status quo so that their heir can stumble like they once did into a six figure salary and a key column in a major publication by the time they've turned the age of 22.
And although alot of this is class related the evidence is undeniable that ancestry plays a pivotal role in a country where a third of the land belongs to a group of people through no mean feat of enterprise but through inherited title and status alone. I suppose the argument being that if you owned all that land you wouldn't want the people getting too caught up in all this hereditary privilege stuff either.
Oh, and by the way, the second chamber in British Parliament is a House Of Lords where hereditary peerages are often the only thing that gives many priveleged aristocrats a seat at the heart of British democracy. There are over 700 peers who hold titles that may be inherited.
Not hung up by ancestry? Yeah sure, and I'm the Duchess Of Middlesex
A lot of parallels there, with many of the current issues here re: our own unofficial "aristocracy", which commands extraordinary influence, and often over several generations. The 26 Billionaires who are Buying the 2012 Election
Throw in the recent Supreme Court decision declaring that Corporations are "people", albeit with virtually unlimited campaign contributions, and there's good reason to feel we now have "the best government that money can buy".
And I suspect in the UK, just as here, it's probably the same "underclass" folks that ironically seem the most attached to preserving the status quo and supporting their "rightful rulers"!
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,458,803 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars
Sounds like an interesting book to me.
It states that the people who settled in Virginia were from the south of England. That would be my mother's side of the family.
Some years ago, I met a guy from Canada who was working temporarily in our office. I saw a photo he had of his mother, and it was amazing how much she looked like Queen Elizabeth in her younger years. It turned out that his mother was Queen Elizabeth's cousin. He spent a lot of time in the U.K. because of his mother's connections. He mentioned once that I looked more like the people who lived in the south of England.
I think he was seeing the looks I inherited from my Grandfather whose family was Welsh. I also had a friend who grew up in the U.S., but was a British citizen until a few years ago when she finally got her citizenship for a job in the federal government. Her family was Welsh and everywhere I went with her, people thought we were sisters.
Anyway, I definitely think groups who came from different areas of the U.K. to America had somewhat different values. Someone up-thread mentioned the book on the Scottish immigrants called "Born Fighting". I've read a little about that book and it's definitely a different value system than what I see in my family. I have a friend whose family was Scots-Irish and it has always seemed to me that they have a tougher outlook on life and that the earlier generations of their family in America struggled more.
Yes, VA Senator Jim Webb wrote "Born Fighting" after exploring his own Ulster-Scots roots, and he feels that the unique values they share over several centuries of fighting (from the Romans at Hadrians Wall, to the English, N. Irish, and even the American Revolution and Civil War), have tremendously shaped American political development. And arguably Karl Rove's infamous "culture wars" were almost specifically designed to speak to the particular values of the Scots-Irish "sons of the South" (where they mainly settled), and their unique attitudes re: religion, the military, self-sufficiency, education, class differences, grievances, etc.. You'll also find a good review here: http://ashbrook.org/publications/oped-owens-04-webb/
BTW, Grass Valley, CA, which is not far from me, apparently was once one of the largest centers of Cornish ex-pats in the world, who were drawn here by mining opportunities during the Gold Rush. Annual Cornish festivities and celtic music festivals, especially at Christmastime, are still a huge draw for tourists. And methinks its also no accident that surrounded by a sea of otherwise boring suburban tract housing, Grass Valley still remains a relatively tidy, charming and self-contained small town with its own unique identity... not unlike its self-sufficient, hard-working and stoic founders from Cornwall (oh, and they still make a great cornish pasty too)!
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I think he was seeing the looks I inherited from my Grandfather whose family was Welsh. I also had a friend who grew up in the U.S., but was a British citizen until a few years ago when she finally got her citizenship for a job in the federal government. Her family was Welsh and everywhere I went with her, people thought we were sisters.
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. Thanks for imparting your wisdom all the same
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