Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
^^The customer is always right! So the mom with a couple of little kids decides not to go to the McDonald's w/o a drive-through, so the street can remain "quaint". Up to them to decide if this is bad for business. The mom with the kids will probably spend more than the single hipster. Here's a quote from the article: "Picture this: It’s the early evening and a father is on his way home from the pediatrician’s office where he learned his toddler daughter is sick, and he needs to pick up medicine for her on their way home. While he would typically park his car and stroll along the sidewalk into the store, walking is not a viable option for him this night – as his daughter has a fever and is resting in the car. I can say with confidence that this father was grateful his town adopted zoning that allowed the pharmacy to install a drive-through window."
Walk a mile in someone else's moccasins for a change. You can go to the next block and be entertained by the fire-jugglers.
I mean this in all seriousness: why is one of your more frequent fall-back responses "won't somebody think of the parents"?
While it is a valid response, there is more than enough country for people to choose those places built around the driver. A single district limiting parking, narrowing roads, or taking other steps to improve walkability in that district isn't a dire situation for parents. So I fail to understand why the needs of parents needs to be brought up so often.
I would say drive-thru services don't belong in walkable neighborhoods if they have more extended hours than walk-in-the-store does. If all the businesses close at 7pm except for the drive-thru, then is it really walkable? I'd say no.
Hemlock had it right with this portion of his comment. Additionally, that same street congestion blocks and makes certain segments of sidewalk unsafe and unwalkable by blocking the sidewalks and creating unsafe numbers of turn-ins in front of pedestrians.
Additionally, Drive-Thrus create areas of dead space beside the sidewalks which disrupt the walking experience of walking by and looking into business window after business window. The driveway aprons also remove locations for street trees and night time safety lighting.
Finally, by being a Drive-Thru, these business induce car usage by making it more convenient to drive and less convenient to walk.
So, mostly no, Drive-Thru businesses don't have a role in Walkable neighborhoods.
I once lived in a very fine-grained transitional neighborhood (originally developed as a streetcar suburb, went through some changes in development in the 50s and 60s, then basically stopped growing till the 2010s). There were perhaps 3 or 4 drive thru businesses (a small bank, a breakfast joint, and two general fast food restaurants, not chains but local spots). These developments worked fairly well in this environment that was fairly conducive to both pedestrians and bicyclists, as well as cars. The key to making that work, in my opinion, was limitation of off-street parking (all 4 developments had 4-6 spots each, at most, for off street parking), an overall cap on how many of these businesses would be allowed (they were basically dead in the water under the current zoning ordinance, so no more could open), required dense landscaping along the right-of-way (clearly defining the apron), and not locating 2 or more of these businesses on adjacent property.
All that to say, I think some limited and conditioned use of drive-thrus are acceptable in a walkable environment. But whether local residents would desire a new business of this type is another matter entirely.
You just said that those areas were busy streets without a lot of foot traffic.
Walkable can of course mean many things, but I favor Nei's definition - an area is walkable if a lot of people walk there.
Well, I didn't say NO foot traffic. Yes, I should have been more clear. 28th St. in Boulder is a busy traffic street that also does get some walking traffic and quite a bit of biking traffic. South Boulder Road in Louisville also has a lot of motor traffic, but I frequently see people walking along there, often pushing baby strollers. And there are the bikers there as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere
Walk-up windows are viable options in these neighborhoods with enough foot traffic to support it.
We went through this yesterday. I seriously don't think the fast food places and banks are interested in doing them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist
I mean this in all seriousness: why is one of your more frequent fall-back responses "won't somebody think of the parents"?
While it is a valid response, there is more than enough country for people to choose those places built around the driver. A single district limiting parking, narrowing roads, or taking other steps to improve walkability in that district isn't a dire situation for parents. So I fail to understand why the needs of parents needs to be brought up so often.
Maybe because I'm one of the few who speaks for parents on this board. eschaton is another parent, but he rarely discusses parenting here; more on the Pittsburgh forum. If you go back through the thread, someone else responded about parents before me. You guys kind of discourage parents from posting by totally ignoring their/our concerns most of the time. Mostly, the parents' perspective isn't even taken into account. I daresay most of the regulars didn't even think of parents with small children when posting about this issue.
Would it be any different if the writer (that was a quote, mind you, not some piece of fiction I made up to illustrate a point; furthermore it came from an article the OP posted) was the patient, and he was picking up medicine for himself, had a contagious disease, felt like garbage and was glad he didn't have to get out of the car, walk into the store, go to the pharmacy counter which is usually not right by the front door, wait in line, then pick up and pay for his prescription and expose a dozen or so people in the process? It sounds like the guy was going to his regular, in-town pharmacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1
I would say drive-thru services don't belong in walkable neighborhoods if they have more extended hours than walk-in-the-store does. If all the businesses close at 7pm except for the drive-thru, then is it really walkable? I'd say no.
You have a point, although to hear a lot of these posters tell it, "walkable" means bars, restaurants and other places open far into the night.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 10-11-2016 at 04:04 PM..
A fast food place likes them because late at night the seating area can be closed; similar to drive-thru except a drive-thru is not viable in the above location. Jade408 did say she has some in her area.
Quote:
You guys kind of discourage parents from posting by totally ignoring their/our concerns most of the time. Mostly, the parents' perspective isn't even taken into account. I daresay most of the regulars didn't even think of parents with small children when posting about this issue.
Perhaps, but in other conversations of driving vs not driving with small kids, other posters who've been parents said they didn't find it harder to put kids in a stroller vs a car seat. Some of it personal preference.
There's been a frequent mention of garages are necessary for parents of young children. My parents didn't have one when I was a young child, so that seems... unconvincing.
Quote:
Would it be any different if the writer (that was a quote, mind you, not some piece of fiction I made up to illustrate a point) was the patient, and he was picking up medicine for himself, had a contagious disease, felt like garbage and was glad he didn't have to get out of the car, walk into the store, go to the pharmacy counter which is usually not right by the front door, wait in line, then pick up and pay for his prescription and expose a dozen or so people in the process? It sounds like the guy was going to his regular, in-town pharmacy.
No, but I've obviously been sick and never used a drive-thru pharmacy. I forgot they existed. I injured myself last Thursday, it hurts a bit and is awkward for me to get out of a car.
In any case, I don't see why every pharmacy needs to have its own drive-thru, if we're taking about a walkable district (like a downtown-like area) you could have no drive-thrus and then drive thrus shops further out. The walkable district is much more convenient for non-drivers, but it's not that hard for drivers to go to the other area if you need to.
Quote:
You have a point, although to hear a lot of these posters tell it, "walkable" means bars, restaurants and other places open far into the night.
I haven't noticed posters focus on that; regardless I haven't. Why not focus on me more?
Try doing it with a baby or toddler or two. The only people totally opposed to drive thrus are singles and DINKs who've never raised kids. We lucked out because we could get stuff brought to our building in NYC. But boy did we appreciate drive thrus when we left the city. Probably there are very few people with small kids in this neighborhood.
I can't remember my parents ever using drive-thrus. This shouldn't be completely unsurprising, most of us are somewhat influenced in habits by parents even with big differences.
......I would say downtown is walkable. Therefore many parents don't raise their children downtown, it is mostly for the young singles.I would say premeditated zoning would be the answer. If it is an older down town, they could turn the allies into bike/walk paths. Then add or spruce up the back door.
......In my neighboring town, they rebuilt their down town and renamed it uptown. They did it completely wrong. They have these long narrow buildings with front and rear doors. Instead of making one side a drive up and vehicle friendly and one side walk up and bike friendly, they made a mess of a mix of both. Which just makes it impossible for drive thru's and driving through, and forget about biking.
Drive-through windows attract customers. What is so hard about comprehending that?
It's not hard, I can tell people like them, but other than the young parent / sick person example I don't see what's so attractive of them. It's rarely any faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
Sometimes you just want a cup of coffee, or a soda. I'd certainly vote to approve a Starbuck's drive-through; maybe a McDonald's "drinks only" drive through lane, something like that.
Sure, just never thought of that as a reason to want to use a drive-thru
A fast food place likes them because late at night the seating area can be closed; similar to drive-thru except a drive-thru is not viable in the above location. Jade408 did say she has some in her area.
Perhaps, but in other conversations of driving vs not driving with small kids, other posters who've been parents said they didn't find it harder to put kids in a stroller vs a car seat. Some of it personal preference.
There's been a frequent mention of garages are necessary for parents of young children. My parents didn't have one when I was a young child, so that seems... unconvincing.
No, but I've obviously been sick and never used a drive-thru pharmacy. I forgot they existed. I injured myself last Thursday, it hurts a bit and is awkward for me to get out of a car.
In any case, I don't see why every pharmacy needs to have its own drive-thru, if we're taking about a walkable district (like a downtown-like area) you could have no drive-thrus and then drive thrus shops further out. The walkable district is much more convenient for non-drivers, but it's not that hard for drivers to go to the other area if you need to.
You have a point, although to hear a lot of these posters tell it, "walkable" means bars, restaurants and other places open far into the night.
That poster was the father, who probably wasn't actually doing the work. He kept talking about how easy it was to "throw" the kids into a stroller, etc. At first I didn't get it, no mother talks like it's some piece of cake to do, then I figured out it was dad who was posting.
Quote:
I haven't noticed posters focus on that; regardless I haven't. Why not focus on me more?
Well, I've noticed it. I'd do a search, but ironically, I have to go to the pharmacy to pick up some medication for my spouse. No drive through! In any event, I was going by a consensus of this board.
Just what kind of walkable district are you talking about anyway? Most of the ones I've seen that close off traffic including Pearl St. in Boulder have one street closed off but do still have cross traffic. It was the same in Calgary when we were there this summer. So people do have to watch somewhat for traffic. In downtown Louisville, there are usually a LOT of people walking around, the alleys break up the sidewalk space between blocks, and there is a bank with a drive through right on Main St. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ma...4d-105.1321289
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
