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Have you ever looked at the power curve of a Civic SI on a dyno? Off idle to about 6k RPM, the car struggles to put out much more than 100 foot pounds and 120 horsepower. From 6k to 8k it makes between 140 - 180 whp and 120 - 130 foot pounds of torque. Basically in order to get any hussle out of the car, you need to keep it boiling. It has anything but a linear curve as the power is steady under 6k, than comes on strong at over 6k.
Compare that to a GTI that maintains a linear curve where from 2k clear through to 6k the car maintains its torque rating and steadily builds the horsepower. More so, if we want to talk about overall power and feel, the peak numbers aren't nearly as important as the "area under the curve". In that comparison the GTI blows the Civic SI out of the water.
Again, both are capable cars and perform roughly equally in objective performance measures. You seem to think that the Civic SI holds some edge over the GTI in handling, but that simply isn't true. The GTI can feel a little heavier do to the hatchback design, but the Civic SI is softer and exhibits more body roll and tire scrub. Driven flat out, both cars are equal. However, if you're in a non-flatout driving situation, the GTI is the more satisfying car (IMO) giving you ample power to get around without the need to rev the motor to the sky and slam gears to keep moving along.
1.) Sure I have. You should take a look too:
~130 lb-ft from 2000 RPM all the way to redline (the bump is where vtec kicks in) so I don't know what you're talking about. The HP curve isn't exactly linear, but I never argued against this. I simply said a flat torque curve is more desirable.
Compare that to the GTI:
Falls flat on its face from 5000 RPM to redline because of the small turbo. The power levels off (so it's NOT linear) and the torque droops.
I already admitted the Si doesn't have much torque and that is its major downfall, but it has much better power and torque delivery than a GTI which is why they have similar 0-60 times and you get much better gas mileage. I can't explain to you enough how every possible performance minded car is tuned to have curves similar to the Si and not the GTI.
The GTI doesn't just feel heavier, it is by about 200lbs. Look, I've driven both. The Si has a better manual transmission and much better road feel (as all hondas have). Couple that with Japanese reliability, cheap maintenance, lower price, and not having to worry about electrical problems (the plague of all VW's) then the choice is pretty obvious. If you ever do want more power, Honda aftermarket is the biggest of any other car company.
~130 lb-ft from 2000 RPM all the way to redline (the bump is where vtec kicks in) so I don't know what you're talking about. The HP curve isn't exactly linear, but I never argued against this. I simply said a flat torque curve is more desirable.
Compare that to the GTI:
Falls flat on its face from 5000 RPM to redline because of the small turbo. The power levels off (so it's NOT linear) and the torque droops.
I already admitted the Si doesn't have much torque and that is its major downfall, but it has much better power and torque delivery than a GTI which is why they have similar 0-60 times and you get much better gas mileage. I can't explain to you enough how every possible performance minded car is tuned to have curves similar to the Si and not the GTI.
The GTI doesn't just feel heavier, it is by about 200lbs. Look, I've driven both. The Si has a better manual transmission and much better road feel (as all hondas have). Couple that with Japanese reliability, cheap maintenance, lower price, and not having to worry about electrical problems (the plague of all VW's) then the choice is pretty obvious. If you ever do want more power, Honda aftermarket is the biggest of any other car company.
I was never arguing which curve was "better" only the way the cars delivered their power in day-to-day driving. FWIW, the difference in power delivery is simply the difference between a naturally aspirated versus a forced induction engine. A supercharged Mustang Cobra will have a similar curve to the GTI, while a NA Mustang will have one similar to the Civic SI. A better comparison may be an E46 M3 vs. a 335i. Or a turbo 911 versus a regular Carrera.
Which is better is all a matter of opinion. I've driven and raced both. Personally on a track I would prefer a NA engine (minus the VTEC) as it does have a more predictable response. However, my argument was that in regular driving, the GTI is a more satisfying car to hussle through traffic versus the Civic as you don't need to flog it to keep the car in the power band.
I was referencing the curves to point out the fact that the GTI is making considerably more power in a given normal driving/acceleration range, say 2k-5k than the Civic SI. It provides for a much different and IMO better feel than what you get from the Civic that is a downright dog until you get the motor spinning over 6k. Without a stopwatch to check, most people would tell you the GTI "feels" faster than the SI and is a more satisfying daily driver.
Take it for what you want, but the daily driving feel is about the only area outside of the practical factors like MPG, reliability, cost and resale that the two cars differ. To me, I vastly prefer the "feel" of the GTI, you obviously don't and it has nothing to do with any lack of driving real performance cars on my part.
When it comes to modifications, it's not even remotely a contest. The GTI is hands down able to be far more modified for better results (more power) for less money versus what you can do with a Civic SI. On the Civc you can throw every bolt-on they make at it and not get over 240 crank horsepower (even with a turbo or NOS or a total engine build you couldn't even expect much more than 300 to the crank and keep it streetable). You can beat that with a $400 tune on a GTI.
I would prefer a Gti. IMO it's classier and less "buy-racer-ish" looking. Plus ou get a turbo'd engine versus a N/A engine, which is great when you want to do upgrades.
I would prefer a NA engine (minus the VTEC) as it does have a more predictable response
Yet you still suggest the GTI because it's a better DD. The OP asked which is a more fun daily driver. Revving the heck out of a 2.0L with a redline of close to 9000 RPM sounds a whole heck of a lot more fun than tapping the gas for a little boost and having the car fall flat. Many car enthusiasts would agree.
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT
I was never arguing which curve was "better"
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT
Compare that to a GTI that maintains a linear curve
Sounded like it to me.
And, given that you were mistaken about how an Si looks like on a dyno, I'm not sure you have much credibility when it comes to Hondas. You even tried making the point that the GTI has a linear power curve, which it doesn't.
Now, if you can point out where I'm making a mistake with the information I am providing, that would be great. If not, the rest is just opinion so you've made your case for both cars, as have I, so just let bygones be bygones.
PS- I never claimed you can make your Si get huge gains with aftermarket parts, just that you can get gains and that there is a wider variety of options for Hondas than any other car out there. Please don't twist my words. Everyone knows with turbos it's as simple as upping the boost and you're done so it's much easier.
Yet you still suggest the GTI because it's a better DD. The OP asked which is a more fun daily driver. Revving the heck out of a 2.0L with a redline of close to 9000 RPM sounds a whole heck of a lot more fun than tapping the gas for a little boost and having the car fall flat. Many car enthusiasts would agree.
I guess that is all personal preference, but I would personally hate driving a "performance" car that was flat out anemic unless I was thrashing it. I loved winding my M3 out to 8k and slamming gears, but I was also happy that I had ample power in a normal range to drive around town without keeping the car boiling. The GTI may start falling off in the upper RPM band do to the small turbo, but it does give you a lot more power than a Civic SI throughout the powerband to drive around. Besides, with the close ratio 6-speed it is very easy to keep the car in its sweet spot and you don't need to rev every gear to redline.
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Sounded like it to me.
And, given that you were mistaken about how an Si looks like on a dyno, I'm not sure you have much credibility when it comes to Hondas. You even tried making the point that the GTI has a linear power curve, which it doesn't.
I've never owned a Honda, but I race with people who do. I respect them for what they are and while they aren't my cup of tea, it doesn't mean they're bad. I do think some people drink a little too much Kool Aid at the trough of Honda, but that's me.
We're arguing semantics over "linear". In the strictest definition you are correct that the SI is more "linear" as it provides ~80% of its torque output across the range, versus the GTI's ~70%. However, the GTI's curve is more "linear" in the general car definition as the SI experiences a noticeable peak when VTEC kicks in, while the GTI maintains consistent power, that trails off at higher RPM. While driving, the SI actually feels like the "surgier" car, suddenly building power over 6k.
Quote:
Now, if you can point out where I'm making a mistake with the information I am providing, that would be great. If not, the rest is just opinion so you've made your case for both cars, as have I, so just let bygones be bygones.
It's all just opinion and really comes down to feel, which was always my point. People have different prefences, the OP should really just drive both and see which they prefer as the cars have quite different character.
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PS- I never claimed you can make your Si get huge gains with aftermarket parts, just that you can get gains and that there is a wider variety of options for Hondas than any other car out there. Please don't twist my words. Everyone knows with turbos it's as simple as upping the boost and you're done so it's much easier.
I would argue the wider variety of Honda parts. Honda itself is one of the few manufacturers to still support inhouse aftermarket groups with Mugen. However, I think you will find that the widest and most diverse aftermarket is the one built around the Mustang and the GM small block cars. VW also has an extremely varied and large aftermarket, but not at the same level as Honda.
I actually owned an Audi A3 prior to this, but it finally died after 77,000 miles. i'm a german car fanatic, but with my current finances and the economy in the tank I had to economize which is why the Civic SI became an option. I ended up driving both the GTI and the SI (really regret not finding a WRX in my price range to test) and as much as I love the layout of german interiors (really they are the most classy) the SI won my heart with the sound and the power above 6,000 rpm.
I really enjoyed my Audi, but as previously mentioned it dropped torque at the higher revs, and i felt this same thing in the GTI. the Civic SI seats have better bolster than the A3 or GTI, and engine wise feels like it has more torque at 6,500 than the VW did throughout its range. (gti tops out a 6,000 rpm, whereas the SI's just getting started)
and yes as someone mentioned earlier my only problem with the civic is these crappy san antonio roads! the ride is not point and shoot, and the comfort level for passengers is not as good, but if i cared about that I'd go buy a buick... :-)
my loyalty to das auto will never waiver, its just on hiatus for now. VW, Audi, and Porsche are in my future, hell screw Ferrari, the Lamborghini Aventador is my halo car.
I actually owned an Audi A3 prior to this, but it finally died after 77,000 miles. i'm a german car fanatic, but with my current finances and the economy in the tank I had to economize which is why the Civic SI became an option. I ended up driving both the GTI and the SI (really regret not finding a WRX in my price range to test) and as much as I love the layout of german interiors (really they are the most classy) the SI won my heart with the sound and the power above 6,000 rpm.
I really enjoyed my Audi, but as previously mentioned it dropped torque at the higher revs, and i felt this same thing in the GTI. the Civic SI seats have better bolster than the A3 or GTI, and engine wise feels like it has more torque at 6,500 than the VW did throughout its range. (gti tops out a 6,000 rpm, whereas the SI's just getting started)
and yes as someone mentioned earlier my only problem with the civic is these crappy san antonio roads! the ride is not point and shoot, and the comfort level for passengers is not as good, but if i cared about that I'd go buy a buick... :-)
my loyalty to das auto will never waiver, its just on hiatus for now. VW, Audi, and Porsche are in my future, hell screw Ferrari, the Lamborghini Aventador is my halo car.
Congrats on the purchase. I think you made the right choice for all practical reasons and you found you nejoyed the SI's feel better, so it's a win-win.
Congrats on the SI purchase. The Civic's are nice simply cars and being a mechanic I would never own a VW, Audi or anything else German. I've spent way too much time working on them and I'll be the first to say the reputation they have of quality is one they DO NOT deserve.
The Civic will last you many years.
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