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It's a no brainer that ones has to do whatever to survive so it's pointless to debate that issue at all.
If its so pointless, then why do you keep trying to discuss it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique13
The moralists always resent those that subvert the rules and win.They cry like babies "it's not fair."
Sounds a lot like those who resent people that are more successful than they are and make a better living than they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique13
Well LIFE ISN'T FAIR.Get over it and deal.
You should take your own advice.
There are plenty of people out there who have succeeded without having to resort to duplicity, often because they do not need to do so in order to succeed. Those who have to cheat in order to "win" are those who are simply not good enough to win by the rules.
Deal with that.
As to the OP - only you can decide what is best for you in your situation. In the end, you could pull off a few fake references, never be found out, and all will work well for you. On the flip side, if you do get caught, it could come back to bite you in the butt - if it does, you won't be able to complain about it.
In the end, its up to you to weight the pros and cons and do what you think is the right thing to do in your position.
There are companies who make a profit providing references for people. Clearly there is a need for this as these companies are turning a good profit. Perhaps if employers stopped being overly picky and unreasonably discriminatory in their interviewing and hiring practices, there would be no need for people to provide fake references or pay companies to do that for them. All this jazz that employers hire based on merit, education, skills, etc. Some actually do. Many employers,however, hire based on a biased set of criteria and most people who have spent a long time in the working world know this. Anybody who is struggling and who has the guts to get creative with resumes and references can only get my support. I have friends whom I've helped in their job search and likewise there are those who have helped me in the past. This is a fact of life. Nothing said here or anywhere else will change what people will do to get hired.Some on here waste energy judging,debating and putting down the creative ones here who learn to survive. I say you're are wasting their time.
I'm oscillating on this one. When I was 17-18 (many moons ago) I used my mother as a reference for a few positions. She was a supervisor in her department and knew how to do it. These were for crap office jobs. Back then I didn't give it much thought. I needed a job and didn't have relevant experience. This could hurt an employer and cost them money. On that end it's simply unethical. Fortunately, the jobs I were going for were so easy that it didn't matter. There's no way I could do that in my current profession. I just wouldn't be comfortable with it.
I have a list of questions that I ask. :-) More than just these.
Here's the list of my questions:
0. What's your relationship with the candidate?
1 In what capacity did you know the candidate?
2 What were the responsibilities of the position the candidate had while working at your company?
3 Do you think the candidate is qualified to assume these responsibilities (briefly give the job description)? Why or why not?
4 On a scale of one to nine, how would you rate this candidate’s job performance?
5 Is this candidate a team player or does he excel by working alone? Requires lots hands-on direction or takes initiative?
6 What was the candidate's attendance record? Was the candidate on-time and dependable?
7 What are the candidate’s areas of strength? Weakness?
8 What was the candidate's reason for leaving the position?
9 Would you rehire this candidate?
10 Would you seek out this candidate to rehire?
11 What did this person do beyond the basic duties of the job?
I am happy to explain on each one why it is not BS. By the way, reference check is NOT just to reach hiring decision. It is also an insight to the candidate so that the employer knows what to expect and how to best manage the person.
I worked as a HR Director in a Fortune 50 company. Through my years of reference checks, I did not very often come across references willing to spend more then 10 minutes of their valuable time talking to someone else they do not know. Everyone is so rushed and cramped with work. You can sense them "starting to get impatient" after the 5 minute mark. Just saying...
When I was hired at my current job, HR asked my references TWO questions: is it true that statisticsnerd worked here from xxxx date to xxxxx date as a xxxx ? and is statisticsnerd eligible for rehire? That was it. It probably took two minutes at the most.
Lying about references is pretty ballsie. I could never do that. I would be too afraid of getting caught. But then again, I make sure I don't do anything unethical either.
I have self standards and hold myself accountable to do the right thing, no matter what it is. 6 weeks ago, I accidently flooded my kitchen. The hard wood floor was ruined. It was my fault. My contractor said he would say he replaced the pipes and write a fake bill so I could make a claim to the home insurance. As tempting as that was, I knew it was wrong and didn't do it.
I would like to know that I got the job on my own honest merits, rather then scheming. I want to look back and say, no matter how hard things got and all the difficult things I went through, I never once resorted to lying and cheating. I can hold my head high!!
And no, I don't walk on water, I just don't fall into the trap of making excuses for bad behavior.
I worked as a HR Director in a Fortune 50 company. Through my years of reference checks, I did not very often come across references willing to spend more then 10 minutes of their valuable time talking to someone else they do not know. Everyone is so rushed and cramped with work. You can sense them "starting to get impatient" after the 5 minute mark. Just saying...
Agreed. And some don't even spend 5 minutes.......
I just recently was fired at a job for doing something wrong in my training, yes it was my fault, and yes I learned my lesson, but in the two months I have been looking NOBODY will give me a chance. In fact I had a job interview, the day before was called and asked to explain what happened. I was totally honest, and then the next day I get an email saying thanks for applying, we have many great candidates yada yada and unfortunately you were not chosen, then a second email saying my interview was cancelled. When I tried speaking to the person they refused to talk to me. I was pretty crushed considering I'd be HONEST.
I mean crap, people screw up in life. I just had a miscarriage, was in therapy, my husband just lost his job because his supervisor found out he has MS and made up a bold faced lie saying my husband wasn't doing a good job EVEN THOUGH my husband had 6 years of experience and had the highest work load of anyone in the company he worked for, then my mother in law was in the hospital dying (literally dying, she had emergency surgery and thankfully is with us now). I admitted my mistake, and then they did some whole STUPID IA investigation against me, got all sorts of people who I thought were my friends to say terrible things about me, and then fired me. Only reason I didn't quit was because at first they made it sound like they were keeping me there, but then last minute changed their minds!
So now I'm stuck, luckily hubby has found a job again and is working, but his salary alone barely covers our bills (we moved back home with my mom), and I don't know what to do. And in fact HIS recruiter said don't tell anyone you were fired at your last job.
I spoke to a friend who is a recruiter and she told me to flat out lie, next time I apply for a job, if asked why I left my last job, to say that I decided to move back to CA (I was in another state and moved back to my mom's in CA) and that the job just wasn't a good fit. She then told me get a few people there to give me a good reference, and to not use my former boss as a reference and that she'd be a reference for me. And if a job application asked for my former boss's number to give them HR's number.
I haven't done it yet, I hate to be dishonest, but what can I do? Honesty has gotten me NOWHERE so far and if I were to get hired at a new place I'd NEVER EVER mention what happened to anyone of course!
I just recently was fired at a job for doing something wrong in my training, yes it was my fault, and yes I learned my lesson, but in the two months I have been looking NOBODY will give me a chance. In fact I had a job interview, the day before was called and asked to explain what happened. I was totally honest, and then the next day I get an email saying thanks for applying, we have many great candidates yada yada and unfortunately you were not chosen, then a second email saying my interview was cancelled. When I tried speaking to the person they refused to talk to me. I was pretty crushed considering I'd be HONEST.
I mean crap, people screw up in life. I just had a miscarriage, was in therapy, my husband just lost his job because his supervisor found out he has MS and made up a bold faced lie saying my husband wasn't doing a good job EVEN THOUGH my husband had 6 years of experience and had the highest work load of anyone in the company he worked for, then my mother in law was in the hospital dying (literally dying, she had emergency surgery and thankfully is with us now). I admitted my mistake, and then they did some whole STUPID IA investigation against me, got all sorts of people who I thought were my friends to say terrible things about me, and then fired me. Only reason I didn't quit was because at first they made it sound like they were keeping me there, but then last minute changed their minds!
So now I'm stuck, luckily hubby has found a job again and is working, but his salary alone barely covers our bills (we moved back home with my mom), and I don't know what to do. And in fact HIS recruiter said don't tell anyone you were fired at your last job.
I spoke to a friend who is a recruiter and she told me to flat out lie, next time I apply for a job, if asked why I left my last job, to say that I decided to move back to CA (I was in another state and moved back to my mom's in CA) and that the job just wasn't a good fit. She then told me get a few people there to give me a good reference, and to not use my former boss as a reference and that she'd be a reference for me. And if a job application asked for my former boss's number to give them HR's number.
I haven't done it yet, I hate to be dishonest, but what can I do? Honesty has gotten me NOWHERE so far and if I were to get hired at a new place I'd NEVER EVER mention what happened to anyone of course!
You need to take your friend's advice, as being "honest" never pays when looking for a job - not in this day and age. And please don't let the "moralists" on this board (they're just a few that post time and time again) sway you, it's important that you focus on just you and do what you need to do to land a job. You made a mistake, who hasn't though? It's the system that's being unfair not giving you a 2nd chance, so you just need make that mistake "disappear" for good and just say that you weren't a good fit or whatever.
Wishing you the best of luck!
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